Attention: Dog Trainers?

Question

I need your view on this. I have already gotten one other trainers views on it, and I want to get views from trainers that are not friends with me. you know, Unbiased views.

Alright...it started out just fine in a debate with a person who i thought was my friend. She is not a dog trainer of any kind, let alone a titled dog trainer. I am an apprentice trainer to a titled trainer.

I am perfectly fine with people disagreeing with my methods of training, but i want mutual respect and to respectfully disagree, one trainer to another.

I use a mixture of correction and praise with my dog training. I use choke collars, prong collars, and e collars for corrections. (e collars for off-leash only and for deaf dogs).

She condemned the trainer i work with and myself for using chokers because supposively it is sucking the life out of a living breathing animal by choking it. I responded that chokers do not really choke dogs in dog training unless used incorrectly. She told me that they do, and i wouldnt know but she would because she has special connections with dogs and sees/feels how they act after a choke collar is used on them.

I quickly changed the subject because it was becoming more angry and less debate. You know. You suck. Your evil. Ylour a bad person. You shoudlnt have dogs. I digress.

I asked her how she would train and she said that she would use treats and positive reinforcement. I believe that there is good and bad from these methods (as there is with any dog training method). i asked her how she would deal with a dog running towards traffic when she doesnt have a treat on her to bribe the dog back. SHe said she would use sharp noises to grab the dogs attention. I believe that this is a valid point, however I have seen her dog before and the dog has no respect for her. It is just a laid back dog. What happens if the cat across the street is more interesting.

i then followed up by asking how she wuold deal with an aggressive dog of hers. She said she wuold give a person food to feed the dog so the dog learns that good things come from strangers. What happens when someone is walking across the sidewalk and her dear dog charges them and they have no food to appease the beast? She said that Victoria Stillwell solves aggressive dogs all the time with these methods.

She told me that she uses the way that dogs in the wild are in a pack. I dont think that any of her methods aer like in the wild. i believe that my methods are more "natural" than hers. Your beliefs?

She also told me that you should never try to be dominent over your dog but be equal so there can be trust and friendship between you two.
She also condemned me for my work with dogs in protection work and my future plan to get a shepherd and teach it to herd. She believes that all dogs should just be house pets i guess. -shrugs-


The conversation ended with her blaming my girlfriend (the titled dog trainer) and I for the aggression that our dog showed that resulted in us having to put her down. She told us basically taht if we had loved the dog the proper way, the dog would not have had aggressive tendencies and we had no right to take the dogs life.


Your views please?

Answer 1

To comment:

"she has special connections with dogs and sees/feels how they act"

That "special connection" is called sympathy and ignorance; it tends to be popular in the dog world.

It's also one of the reasons so many dogs are dumped off on other owners as well as shelters.



If I used a sharp/loud noise to "grab" by Husky's attention the first time she encountered a cat: the cat would have been dead, along with every other cat she ever came across.



"She said that Victoria Stillwell solves aggressive dogs all the time with these methods."

When exactly was the last time Victoria had to help an owner with an aggressive dog? Never. Untrained dogs and ignorant owners? Yes. Truly aggressive dogs? No.



"never try to be dominent"

My not-so fat, not-so-italian azz! [My apologies. An old friend of mine used to say "my fat italian azz" all the time.]

Contradictions at their best. She claims her techniques are "closer to the wild pack", and yet she doesn't believe/know/use the pack system?







To answer:

Different dogs have different needs.

You'll come across some dogs that only respond through positive reinforcement, and you'll come across some dogs that NEED discipline and so-called "harsh" training.



As for the prong/choke chain issues:

Every training "aid" you'll come across has the ability to damage a dog one way or another. Especially when in the hands of ignorant owners such as your lady-friend you had the altercation with.

I've successfully used a Choke Chain on two of my dogs, and I plan on getting a Prong Collar in the very-near future for one of my dogs as she's taken to pulling.

Proper use almost *guarantees* good results without harm.

Answer 2

With my clients I approach each dog as an individual.

They are not all alike. There is not a one way motivates all for dogs.

When training you must gage your corrections to a level the dog can deal with.

I have in my training supplies and e-collar, a prong collar, a halti lead, a choke collar, a martingale lead show lead, and flat nylon limited slip collars, flat nylon buckle collars, and check cords. I use all of these.

Positive reinforcement works great for some things however there needs to be corrections for things that are really wrong or dangerous.



There is no one trainer who has the best method. To each his own.

I never knock anyone but I also never argue a point with someone who is against using that particular method. If the person does not like the method of training they will not use it and will not do any follow up work with the dog so the dog will never be trained.



Most of the day to day issues I go in and see are not aggression. They are dogs who have not been taught any manners. They could be dangerous put in the right setting. But most just have not been taught anything. Most are under exercised and bored. They are entertaining themselves. Not in way the owner likes.



When you train dogs you must learn to develop a tough hide. Everyone is going to critique you and the methods you use. Let it roll off your back and move on. You will never be able to please everyone.

The person who uses positive reinforcement only thinks they are a kinder trainer and that is fine. One day when some one asks them to work a aggressive dog they will find out that "special connections" only go so far. They will also find out that bribes do not always work.

Respect goes a long way with dogs. In a pack setting one is in charge and has the respect of the followers. He did not gain that respect by bribing the other dogs.

Answer 3

There is nothing wrong with chokers, prong collars, or electric collars. Positive reinforcement DOES NOT mean there are not consequences for incorrect behavior, WAYYYYY too many people do not comprehend what positive reinforcement is.



AS far as "certifications"...they mean a little less than Doodley Squat. Anyone can get certified if they spend the money...it does NOT mean that person can train a dog. It means they attended class, and learned a method. I've had well over 100 "Certified" trainers try to get a job here...about a third were "Certified Master Trainers"....NONE could train a dog. Of course, I didn't offer any neutered Labradors either. In almost 30 years, I've only known 2 dogs that needed to be put down. An UN-certified, but very seasoned trainer may have fixed the problem. He would NOT have used a Halty, Gentle Leader or loud noises to accomplish it...of that I'm positive.



Ahhhhh....Victoria....upon her thinking that Victoria is anything other than a Babbling Idiot with a 90 pound treat bag, I would have just given up and walked away. She's obviously ignorant.



As for her "Special Feelings"....I'd ask how "Special it Felt" when she got her head stuck up her a_ss?

Answer 4

Cool.



Any device used for training, be it a treat or a correction collar, is just an aide that needs to be weaned off of.



Your prong collar is similar to the treat when the dog is running into traffic, no prong collar on the dog - no treat in your hand. Same thing, the dog won't stop running into traffic if your training aid is absent.



You'll find a large percentage of trainers view most correction devices as "old school" practices now. Especially a choke collar, no one uses those anymore! The reason no one uses those is because they are proven to actually damage the neck tissue. Prong collars are much safer to use if you're going to use a correction collar at all. The issue with a pinch collar is that they cause negative associations, same with the e-collar or shock collar. If you're not careful your dog could end up attacking another dog or person if you're using it to correct the dog for behaviors involving dogs or people (barking at another dog get's a correction).



I'd say for 95% of dogs, you don't need any corrections to train them. They respond just fine to positive reinforcement training (including food rewards). There is a small percent of dogs who do respond better to compulsion based methods.



You'll also find that MOST people want their dogs to be trained using a positive method, so consider that once you're a trainer and trying to get business. If you slap an e-collar on everyones dog, be prepared for some owners to immediately have concerns about your methods.



And by the way...



What's "titled" you don't have to have any type of title or certification to be a trainer, anyone can be one. BUT there are many different types of certifications out there.



Certified Pet Dog Trainer is probably the most credible one in the US.



ADD

I also believe that even the most positive trainers use some form of corrections. There are no correction-free training methods. For example when I leash train the correction for pulling is to stop walking so the dog cannot keep going, this is a correction...although it is not as harsh as the leash "jerk".



You'd be best off as a trainer to understand ALL methods and how to use them. Since all dogs won't respond to a pinch collar nor will all dogs respond to food lure.

Answer 5

ANY piece of training equipment can be used in a cruel and abusive way by an ignorant or cruel person. Make that as part of your training mantra. It is not the equipment that causes harm but the person using it that has the potential to do harm. Your friend is very misinformed and most likely have never trained a dog at competition or working levels. It sounds like she is lucky to have a good dog. I find that a lot of companion dogs have issues because they are bored. Some of the most neglected dogs that I have seen have been relegated to the back yard because of behavioral problems. I'm not sure what a "titled" trainer is because there are no laws requiring trainers to be certified in order to offer dog training services. There are no titled trainers that I know of but there are titled dogs. Back to your question. Use the equipment that you are comfortable and knowledgeable in using and tell your friend to bug off. One thing that your trainer should be telling you is that there are many ways to train dogs. No one way works for all dogs or people. Keep those things in mind and you will do well.

Answer 6

Every dog responds differently to the various training methods that are used. Some will work well for food and learn fast that way but others aren't so food motivated. My son took our Golden to training classes that used prong collars. The Golden gets really excited if he hears the collar chains make noise and come running with his tail wagging. He knows that it means training and loves to train. So if the training tools are used in the proper way, I don't think that prong collars or choke collars would be perceived as torture to the dogs. Our Golden associates it with only good and fun things. Even though it has been 7 years since he attended any classes, he still reacts in a positive manner if he hears the prong collar.

Answer 7

You have a lot of questions in there!



There are proper ways to use chokes and prongs, and improper ways to use chokes and prongs. Most people don't use them correctly.



I'm not a fan of e-collars. The don't work. The dog has no way to make the appropriate association between the correction and his activity, so the dog usually ends up ignoring them.



This other lady sounds a little too committed to a single way of training. Positive reinforcement with proper leash correction is my first choice, but it shouldn't be the only tool in your arsenal. Maybe she has only trained breeds with soft temperaments and that is why she feels so singularly committed to her methods. She apparently has never had to get a dog back in an emergency, either. I guess you haven't either, because an e-collar isn't going to do the trick either.



I do agree with your sparring partner about dominance. The term has been so misused that it is virtually useless outside of an academic classroom. You don't want to be 'equals', not, but the term dominance is just about useless because it is so misunderstood, abused, and misused. You can chuck all that pack crap right out the window as well. It's usually intertwined with dominance training and again, it's so misunderstood that it's useless.



Without having witnessed your aggressive dog's behavior, it's impossible to say if the dog needed to be put down or if you had anything to do with developing or increasing its aggressive tendencies.

Answer 8

I will make my answer nice & short. I believe in CORRECTION & PRAISE. Training should NEVER be all bad, bad, bad & it should also not be all good, good, good. It should be in the middle. Balance it. I use choke collars & it does not suck the life out of my dogs. Yes when I jerk them, they stop their nonsense & look at me like they're saying sorry but after that, they bounce up again & perform what I ask them to do. We work as a TEAM! I don't always bribe my dogs to, "please, please do what I tell you to do." That's not the way it should be. I believe in POSITIVE & NEGATIVE reinforcements. ALL training methods do not suit all dogs. It depends from dog to dog. Like for a timid, shy dog, it would probably suit the positive training which is clicker training best than other methods. A protection dog cannot be trained using clicker training. It's too gentle. Neither will it suit my dogs. I DO NOT criticize other peoples' training methods UNLESS it is cruel. Like if someone did the "helicopter swinging thing" to a dog, then I would be very unhappy about that. That is totally unacceptable...



ADD: I have been criticized by my methods before by people who DON'T even train their own dogs but claim to know alot more than me. What a joke!

Answer 9

One class does not a perfect dog make. Training is a lifelong thing with dogs. At 10 months this is a young pup who needs to be worked daily on basic obedience stuff and then also on the specific things you are having issues with. The stealing things you need to puppy proof you home. Place shoes and clothes out of the dogs reach. Do not let the dog have free access to the bedrooms. Jumping on the furniture is a personal choice but if they are allowed to do so then they think it is ok at any time even if someone is sitting on it. At that time it would not be ok. But you have to make the rules and then follow them all of the time 100% of the time and do not change the rules. If you are having behavior specific issues you may want to have a trainer come into your home and give you tips and tricks on how to better control the dogs behavior. Working one on one with the person and the dog in the home is the fastest way for me to see what is going on and give ideas on how to fix the issues.

Answer 10

Was her name Victoria Stilwell? LOL ;-)

You NEVER see Stillwell deal successfully with aggressive dogs on her show. Her attempts with a handful of cases have been pathetic and left the owners scratching their heads.



Motivation/Reward methods are terrific but can only work so far. Unless a dog is a totally submissive, dependent creature there will be times when it must be shown a consequence for an undesirable behavior rather than just a distraction or alternative behavior. The only way to issue a consequence is by asserting dominance, either through physical or verbal correction, or control of resources. This is particularly true with aggressive dogs.

Choke collars can be used successfully if one knows how to use them correctly. However pinch collars are more effective.

Hope this helps.

Answer 11

Why are you wasting your time arguing with someone who thinks she has some special connection with dogs that nobody else has?



Just leave her alone .....she will probably learn the hard way, one of these days, when her dog bites someone, or she runs into a dog who doesnt care about treats.



Do what you think is right, and take her opinion for what it is worth.

Answer 12

Bad habits are only undone by being stern with an animal. While physically harm it isn't necessary, yelling or dominating it might be. I use choke chains, your friend is a psycho. If dogs were seriously hurt by choke collars, there would be tons of reports. They're fine.

Answer 13

Someone should have worked with the aggression when the dog was young & put a stop to it right away. Then there would never have been an aggression issue.



I used choke chains in training but would never use the prong collar or an e-collar for any reason. It is not necessary & I consider it cruel.



I have never used treats as a training aid. Never. & I would never allow someone else to hand my dogs food. If they get used to that they could be poisoned real easy. I poison proof any dog that has gone into advanced training or in any aggression work.



It is quite obvious that both of you have a lot to learn & your argument was like the blind leading the blind. Both of you had some things right but there are things that neither one of you know. Canine behavior is completely different from human behavior but many people apply human behavior to our canine friends.