DS: Do you believe "time-outs" have a place in dog training?

Question

My animal training professor told us a story of how he once helped curbed the aggression of rescue Dachshund. I cannot recall what he said the trigger of the dog's biting was, but I'm pretty sure it was just everyday handling.

He said each time the dog nipped at him, he'd lock him in a crate, let him throw his little temper tantrum (the dog hated the crate) and wait for him to get calm and quiet before taking him out again. He repeated this process several times, and said after awhile, all it took was him to simply point in the direction of the crate and the dog would go sit in it. He said with several repetitions, the dog quit biting altogether.

I find this hard to believe, and personally suspect that the reason the dog quit biting was either because it became desensitized to whatever the trigger was over time. I also find it very odd that the dog would walk into the crate if the he saw it as a punishment. However, I've heard of another case where a large breed dog acted very aggressively, and the time out technique was used on him and resolved the issue. I disagree with him using a crate punishment, because it could teach the dog to hate crates, but that's besides the point.

Does this technique really work? If so, how? And why would the dog walk itself to the crate on purpose?

Answer 1

Removing a dog from a situation to a quiet area to allow them to de-escalate their behavior CAN work as part of a training approach, yes. Also removal to a crate or quiet room as a consequence for an action can modify behavior as well. It should not be used as a "punishment" and it shouldn't be made a negative thing for the dog. It's simply a neutral consequence for a behavior. If a dog doesn't want to be removed from a situation, and the consequence of a behavior is that they are removed each and every time, the behavior generally stops. If the dog is not allowed into a situation they want to be a part of until they are quiet and calm, they will learn that if they are quiet and calm, they get to participate in that activity. I used it to successfully stop my Miniature Pinscher from barking at every noise, and have a number of friends who've used it for barking and other problem behaviors, with great success. My Min Pin will still go to the door or window to investigate a strange noise, but he keeps quiet- because if he doesn't, he doesn't get to investigate the source of the noise. There's a good explanation of using this technique as a neutral consequence for problem barking here: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/prize.htm

Answer 2

If you break it down into a basic action-reaction sequence then a time-out can work, as most dogs do not like to be separated from the pack. The tricky thing about time-outs is "does it teach the dog anything"? Usually, a correction should only be given in a situation where you know 100% that the dog knows the command and can perform reliably at the current distraction level, but is choosing not to.



I don't even crate train. First of all it is not a standard method here (Denmark), second of all, even though it is practical for the owner, the dog doesn't really learn anything by sitting in a crate. The same with time-outs, they are a punishment for a behaviour, but they rarely teach the dog the appropriate behaviour or what is expected of it, and it is much faster and easier for the dog to understand a short "no!"



That said, I do use them, but as a correction combined with getting the dog to calm down. A reverse time-out, if a mouthing puppy cannot leave me alone even when I yelp and ignore it, I might leave the room for 30 seconds. For my adult dog, if she gets too hyper in the evenings when we're trying to relax, she gets a time-out in the hallway. Only for a couple of minutes, and no closed doors or anything. She goes outside on her own when told to. Why she does it? Obedience, and she knows it is a very temporary thing. Usually just the mention of time-out will have her calm down immediately, though, so she obviously knows what is expected of her.



I'm not sure if it is the best method to use in the cases you describe or not. Whether or not the work because of the crate itself or because there was a consequence, any consequence of bad behaviour...I can't say. I will say that I would not be inclined to grab a biting dog and push it in a crate. But yes, time out means no contact and for many dogs that in itself is the worst kind of correction.



I also don't agree with using a crate as a punishment. Even though I don't crate train, crates are for transportation and should be seen as good places to be.

Answer 3

Sadly I haven't seen many true scientific studies on dog training as a whole. One bit of research that I would really love to see is a properly done study on the use of different training tools. Sure there are a couple out there but the ones that I have read only show me that those particular researchers were only fluent in the use of a couple of tools. The rest were used haphazardly and incorrectly. Some were used incorrectly enough to almost be cruel. My training philospthy is based on what seems to work for me and my students. There is some science but I have found that the research has not kept up with the training that is done now. Much of it is trial and error. What would really make a study valid for me is that the people doing the research have trained a dog to an advanced level. This way they would have an understanding what is needed in the field and the steps that it takes to get there. I feel that as a whole it has caused some poorly trained dogs all in the name of science. Again these are pets and not working dogs. I find that most working dog trainers use a balanced approach in their dog training. This in turn is what makes for a well trained dog. To me the tool used doesn't matter near as much as the technique.

Answer 4

This is akin to deprivation training. The dog has learned helplessness. The dog has not "learned" to trust his owner, or even why he's been made an outcast. He has no idea why he is crated.



Instead he has become defeated. And its shameful and very sad. This is a style of training advocated 30 years ago by Koehler fanatics. It should be burned at the stake.



The only purpose of a "time out" is for the human to re-group. It does nothing for the dog that bites its owner - and done in excess, as as means of punishment, it constitutes abuse. NEVER use the crate as a tool for punishment.



If this guy is a professor, its a good reason to get the hell outta Dodge and find another school.

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Add: It should be obvious, but dogs are not children, they are not human and the notion of "go to your room" is not understood by k-9s.



And Keith is correct.

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Add: UHave2Be is correct in that a dog must have an immediate correction to redirect behaviour - n ( I don't want to get into the discipline of children because that is NOT the same). And I've personally owned and trained tactically (that means tracking, bite work, and agiltiy) a very serious Doberman male that I rescued - and he DID bite me - hard -- 3 times actually in the first 3 months I owned him. And I can tell you that throwing him in a cage was not the solution and defeating him wasn't the answer. The answer was to work the dog, develop his trust by increasing his stress threshold gradually. Not render him helpless using techniques like deprivation training or flooding.

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Steve E has a well written post although I would disagree on some of his notions of discipline (corrections) he raises a valid point- its wrong to focus on biting to the exclusion of all other behaviours and I do agree with him that a strictly punitive approach (blunt force) is not the answer.



All dogs know how to bite. Its not something humans can train out. It is a dog's natural defence and to bite a human is for a dog, a last resort. In my Doberman's case, rather than suppress this trait, I trained him to control his impulses by working him in bite work, agility and tracking and this training coupled with love and a fair and safe environment , with clear boundaries worked. He blossomed and became a trusted guide and protector, a great canoe dog and a loyal companion.

Answer 5

Like many of these other answers I do not believe the crate should be used for discipline. They're crate is what we consider our "room" which is a place of comfort and privacy. I at first had a very hard time teaching my 1 year old pit to use his crate but now anytime he wants to lay down it's his go to spot. I think instead of disciplining your dog with a crate you should instead discipline in a QUICK orderly fashion with down that their level scolding. The scolding does not include hitting or screaming however, it includes stern eye contact. I've learned a lot from my dog, and I realize he listens much better to what I say if I actually encourage him instead of yelling at him. If he's biting on your child's teddy bear, instead take the bear away with eye contact and a STERN NO. Then quickly replace that bear with his own toy, like a bone or squeaky toy. This way he associates the bone and squeaky toy with chewing, not the stuffed animal.

I hope this helps a little!!

Answer 6

The only situation in which I would think a "time out" would be helpful is if the animal is overstimulated, and the crate gives it a place to calm down.



I dont think its an effective correction for normal bad behavior.



Any dog would go into a crate when told if it had been taught that it didnt have a choice.



I usually crate my evil chi when I go out, because she picks fights with my Westie when I am not home. She does not particularly like the crate, but when she sees me getting ready to go out she will crate herself if the door is open. If not, she will wait by the crate until I open the door.

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Dogs bite for a number of reasons, only one of which is fear.



Dogs also bite because they are possessive, or because they have learned that they can use biting to control humans or other dogs and get their own way.



Obviously corrections are not appropriate for a fearful dog, but they can be entirely appropriate and effective when the biter is not motivated by fear.

Answer 7

The crate should never be a punishment. It's as simple as that. You should give your dog a treat every time he goes in the crate, so the crate becomes a comforting place to be in.



When my dogs are bad, I scold them and remove them from the area. If they are fighting, I'll separate them for about 5 minutes until they calm down.



My dogs do of course go to the crate on their own, but that's because they are rewarded for doing so. I also find that story hard to believe, would you ever willingly walk into a punishment?

Answer 8

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Answer 9

Dogs in my world have to be crate trained, as I travel and compete with my dogs. So that said sometimes they would rather not go in but it is an order that they must go in and settle down. With my dog I free shape the kennel using operant conditioning. So yes most times when I say kennel my dogs run to get in you should see my puppy in the morning he just about runs me over and even opens the door to get in.



The time out? Well it is just a word that so many people get bent out of shape on. Do I put a dog in a kennel sometimes for it to settle down sure do. Is it a punishment I guess some people see it as that but I see it more as a management tool. The dog goes in until he settles down and it is not until the owner stops being mad at the dog. You are right I don't think a dog can understand when you say get in your kennel this is your time out.



A friend had a beagle that as soon as he walked into the training building he would get so excited the dog was just about crazy he didn't have biting issues. So a Time Out was used just long enough for the dog to settle down. In the beginning the Time Out was a couple minutes, last time I saw the dog the Time Out was about 10 seconds. So do I believe Time Outs with dogs can work Yes I sure do it just needs to be used in the correct way.



For a biting dog I would counter condition outside the dogs threshold of reaction. I would also train the dog as I am sure this dog has other issues that are being over looked. I train the whole dog and not just fix the problems to many people just focus on the one issue they see.



Just to add for the people that still think a correction is the way to deal with a dog that bites, I know you are wrong. Most dogs bit out of fear and for the owner to give a pain correction you are just showing your dog that you can not be trusted. Correction based training methods only cause dogs to shutdown or suppress there problem it doesn't teach the dog a better way to handle there fear.

Answer 10

I have a yorkie that doesn't mind going in her crate. When she isn't feeling well or is simply tired, she goes in there all by herself. When she is in trouble and I tell her to get in her crate, she does so. She doesn't see the crate as a type of punishment. That's her "safe place". She likes to go in there because she isn't really in trouble anymore. When she gets to come back out after a little bit, she can go back to playing. I think she knows if she goes in there that I won't be mad at her the next time she sees me.

Answer 11

The crate should never be a punishment. It's as simple as that. You should give your dog a treat every time he goes in the crate, so the crate becomes a comforting place to be in

Answer 12

I think "time outs" have a place in training as long as it's for the human involved...if that human is getting frustrated or angry & needs to stop, take a break, be calm & think about the situation.



DOGS do NOT understand "time outs"....PEOPLE do.



Children & dogs should not be compared when talking about "time outs"!



For one, every child is different & what works for one, may not for another. However I do not think a "time out" is an accurate way to discipline a child. "Time outs" are just that...time to THINK about & understand what you did wrong, however...there should still be a consequence...such as either a spanking if that works or in the case of my son, taking away something that he really likes, grounding him/taking away privileges. I do not believe spanking is abusive...as long as the butt is what is spanked...by no means should you leave marks on your child....EVER.





I would feel completely STUPID if I put my dog in "time out".

PEOPLE can grasp the complexity of thinking about what they did wrong....an dog just knows consequence.



This dog likely learned the process after a while.....& would automatically go to his crate, because he knew he was going to go there anyways...but I'm absolutely positive he had no idea why.



UHAVE2B- Parents are lazy & take absolutely no time to teach their children anything. NOT everything is about spanking or "time outs".....PARENTS SHOULD TEACH their children right from wrong, to have morals, values, manners, but with so many irresponsible, lazy people spitting out children of course the poor children involved don't stand a chance....

Answer 13

Time outs have their uses, when properly applied. They give the dog time to calm down and defuse whatever situation is the problem. For example, if the dog is overly stimulated while playing and not calming when told, the "time out" not only allows him to calm down, it also shows him that when he acts inappropriately the fun stops. The punishment is not so much being in the crate as the end of whatever it was he was enjoying. Any halfways intelligent dog quickly learns to restrain himself so that the game can continue.



EDIT: And yeah, I have obedience titled dogs, including obedience titles on 17 Basset Hounds and one Afghan Hound. Plus agility and rally titles as well.

Answer 14

I think "time outs" CAN work and CAN have appropriate times and uses, depending on the dog and the situation.



Luther tends to get himself very worked up and excited, especially when we are preparing to leave. Even putting on our shoes can cause him to work himself all up, and he will run back and forth across the entire house barking and whining and jumping. A 5-10 minute down stay on his bed is enough to calm him down and get him through the spell, and then he can be properly worked with. Would this not constitute as a "time out"? He "misbehaves" and is then commanded to stay quietly in one area.



Also, much like leaving an excited, jumping, biting puppy. Dogs thrive on being with their pack. Completely leaving and ignoring an excited dog can quickly teach away an unwanted behavior like play biting. Again, is this not equivalent to a "time out"? The dog soon learns every time it bites, you leave.

Answer 15

Think of it like a little child who has done something bad. The adult would put them in the corner and not let the participate in actives until they calmed down.This is how they learn that if you are good you don't get put in the corner. And If the adult tells them to go to the corner, they will go, because the child knows that they will be in the corner either way. But instead of a child in the corner its a dog and a crate. It's the same principle.

Answer 16

I look at "time outs" as an extension of the NILIF theory. If I remove the resource, ie, myself, the dog will respond differently the next time.



This is not something that is done for "punishment". It is done to teach that a certain behavior is not going to get the desired result. People think it works for underlying issues, or things that actually require training, like potty accidents, for instance......



I have used this on occasion with my ACD, as removing their "person" is just about the worst thing that can happen to an ACD. It calms her down and makes her remember her good manners.



ETA: Forgot to add that my "time out" does not include crate punishment.



ETA: You brought back my memory of my niece when she was very young. She had screaming fits when she did not get her way, so bad that sometimes she had to be hospitalized. My sister did not want to correct this awful behavior, (too much reading of Dr. Spock), but once she started the "time outs" she no longer screamed so much she had to be hospitalized, and they grew less and less severe until they disappeared. I would say they worked!



ETA: In my sister's family, there was NO option of "hitting". As we all three sisters grew up in a physically abusive home, it is not hard to understand that she wanted to swing the other way. She just swung too far in her permissiveness. She came to understand that she still needed to set limits of behavior. Her kids all grew up fine, with no "swatting".



There are other ways to get what you want that do not always include physical means. People who opt for physical right out of the gate have impulse issues, in my opinion......

Answer 17

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Answer 18

They certainly do help in managing dogs. Especially running large groups together, to stop obsessive humpers, for example.



How time outs prevent unwanted behavior isn't immediately apparent. But 'reseting' the dog's attitude with a calm moment might help the dog observe his environment with a level head, and allow him to re-enter the group with calmer attitude.

Answer 19

Dogs live in the NOW.

Avoid negative re-enforcement of any kind.

Plus if anyone still feels compelled to use a crate with an older housebroken dog why would you take a chance of associating what should be considered a refuge as a place of isolation and sadness?

Answer 20

I've used it with older puppies - when they've been completely wound up and there's no "reasoning" with them. Gives them a chance to calm down and be more receptive to training - no point in trying to give commands to a puppy with the zoomies!

ETA: Not in their crate - the utility room and only for 5-ish minutes.

Answer 21

We tried time outs with one of my dogs before(NOT in a crate, crates should not be used for punishment and the dog you talked about probably didn't actually go in himself) It seems pointless. Whenever he would hump, we take him to "time-out"(in a different room behind a babygate) After a few times of trying this, we would have to drag him to that area(he would fight back" so I find this pointless. We started to just have him on a leash and when he humped, yank and say "no" It was so much simpler and he caught on.

Answer 22

The method you describe is not only utterly USELESS, but is also likely to make the dog MORE frustrated & aggressive.



The only way a 'time-out' will work with a dog, is for the handler to literally 'stand over' the dog until the dog calm down and submits. (standing over a dog is a sign of dominance, and so is reinforcing your position as pack leader).

Answer 23

I agree that the only time that a "time-out" has a purpose if the dog is overstimulated and need to wind down a bit. For the OWNERS sanity, I dont think the dog learns anything in the process.



As for causing an actual behavior change or learning a lesson...Hah!!! It rarely works on kids....definitely not on animals

Answer 24

I have timed mine out for like 2 mins after he chewed my £202 spectacles (luckily he dd not get hurt)but that was for me not the dog l o l

Answer 25

This is my story: We taught my 6mo orphan pup Kobe to be more relaxed when im away in just 4 days. How did I do it. it just took using the Dog discipline magic system we researched with google.

Answer 26

I think they have as much place in dog training as child training and that means ZERO.



Neither dogs or children consider a "time out" a consequnce.



It is the MOST ridiculous thing I have ever heard of or seen.



Hence todays spoiled ill behaved children and dogs.



If my dog earns a correction, I never disappoint them, he gets one- a real correction.

Not some imaginary concept of a time out that a dog has no ability to grasp.



I would NEVER EVER EVER use a crate as a place of punishment.





ADD: DD, you see there is no protocol for a swat on the rear for a kid, and it works and it usually then prevents them from misbehaving again since it is a real consequence. As opposed to multiple "time outs". I am so sick of misbehaving children in public. It is nearly impossible to eat in peace at a restaurant because of these parents who refuse to parent.

Answer 27

May help the person to remain calm................not the dog..........................................