Does being a 'reputable breeder' mean you don't make money?

Question

For arguments sake, lets cut out the breeders who do it as a hobby every few years and do not have a serious commitment to breeding. Cut out the puppy mill and byb's.
The people who health test/work/show their dogs and the dogs are all well stimulated and well cared for. They may have up to 10 litters a year and sell each pup for a few grand each.

The people who breed dogs and do make a profit off it (yes, they do exist), does making money from breeding dogs automatically make someone a bad breeder?

Is being a bad breeder determined by how many dogs you have, how many litters a year they produce and if they make money off it?
If so, what is the highest number of dogs/litters can someone have before they are no longer labeled a good breeder?


I'm asking due to the recent departure of a pet breeder on here and the many answers i see saying that 'reputable breeders don't profit'.. is this truly what people think?
Who would set out on a costly venture without the goal of earning the money back?

Answer 1

A lot of people do feel that reputable breeders don't make money. Many feel the type of breeder you are referring to are automatically bad breeders.



I disagree with both.



I don't see anything wrong with making a profit on the hard work of producing well bred dogs. If you are cutting corners to make that profit, or overinflating your price, that is what makes you a BYB.



Most small time breeders are lucky to see a profit, but doesn't mean they don't.

Answer 2

There are reputable breeders who make money - however, it's difficult and you have to have the numbers, reputation and quality of dogs to sustain making an income.



I tell this story often - a friend of mine in 2006 grossed over 60K in puppy sales and stud fees. Pups range in price from $1800 -$2500. She had four good sized litters and owned, at that time, about 8 b*tches and a couple of dogs (so, for numbers sake let's say 10 adults). All are house dogs. She does this as a "business"... but shows, titles and does all the health testing on her dogs. By the time she was done doing her taxes and taking most of her expenses out she netted 14K. By the time she was done paying into taxes, including federal, social security and medicare tax, she took MADE 11K to pay her mortgage and her health insurance. This, for a job that is 24 hours a day 365 days a year (because it's darn difficult to give 10 dogs plus puppies enough attention if you hold another job). It's a very good thing that she has a lifestyle that affords her other means of support.



Percentage wise there are very few "reputable" breeders who can make a profit at it let alone a living. They exist but are few and far between.

Answer 3

"They may have up to 10 litters a year and sell each pup for a few grand each."

Wow! I know lots of breeders and not one of them breeds half that number of litters - not many people have the facilities/time or money to have that many litters on the go. Neither do I know anyone who can sell their puppies for a few grand.(well, maybe a handful of really top kennels)

You've already asked this question in a different form so I won't go into what makes a good breeder - the highest number of litters some people can breed without being a bad breeder can be zero.



"Who would set out on a costly venture without the goal of earning the money back?"

You may find it hard to believe but most breeders who truly care about their breed.

For the same reason, people embark on the risky & costly business of importing fresh blood with no guarantee of any return on their money.

Answer 4

Making a profit does not exclude you from being a good breeder. There are some that do. The truth of the matter is that most hobby breeders (my definintion of hobby breeders is the show/competitive breeders who breed mainly for their own show stock) do not make money due to the high investment of proving and testing their breeding stock. There are also some reputable proffessional breeders like the ones who produce working dogs for services like police departments. They make a profit or would not be in business.



To me what makes a good breeder is:

Were the dogs

A. Tested and cleared for all heretidary issues within that breed?

B. evaluated by an expert in that breed as being worthy to breed? Expert = judge or top breeder/competor in the breed. Not the BYBer down the street who has breed low quality pomchis or doodle for the past 50 years.

C. Temperament has been determined sound

D. Study of genetics & Pedigrees has been done and the BEST possible mate has been found.

E. A complete study of the breed, history, use, and health issues has been completed.

F. I prefer some sort of competition has been done with both parents, but am willing to give some leeway due to circumstances IF one parent has proven itself AND all other ancestors are proven AND the uncompeted parent is still an outstanding representative of the breed.

G. Worked with a Mentor who is an experienced and successful breeder/competitor and learned from them.

H. There is a lifetime return policy on all pups sold so the dogs will not some day end up in a shelter.



The number of litters is irrelevant as long as they have the personnel, and resources to properly raise and socialise all the puppies. And they have homes lined up for them.



There are many hobby breeders who will never, ever get the financial return on their investment. They are looking for that holy grail of the homebred perfect dog. They breed not for the financial gain but love of the breed and their sport. But being in a financial hole is not a requirement to be a reputable breeder.

Answer 5

I would define a good breeder not by how many dogs they have nor how much money they make, but how they go about breeding. Do they know their dogs well enough to place them in appropriate homes? How many breeds are they breeding (one-three is really enough, especially if the breeds are all over the place as opposed to focused in one area). What sort of health/genetic testing is being done? Are they breeding for a *purpose*--to better the breed? Do they show/work their dogs?



And finally--which is the problem with the departed pet breeder--are they even breeding a BREED? Or are they creating more pet mutts and spewing lies about purebreds in order to turn a buck?

Answer 6

No being reputable is not determined by numbers. There are a very few working kennels that do make money from breeding, however most of those are working line kennels (protection, field lines etc) and not show kennels. Those that do are few and far between however. What you tend to see more of is the larger scale kennels that may look good on the face but when you look closer you start to see the problems with the kennel (general lack of quality in the majority of the dogs, heath issues etc) my breed has at least 2 well known kennels like that. They may throw a few nice dogs and breed on such a large scale that then number of "nice dogs" they produce equal the number of "nice dogs" produced by small scale breeders but the majority of the dogs they produce are lacking

Answer 7

Yes they come in many disguises we all know that

However if a breeder is breeding back to back with as many bitches as they have & selling for £2-£3000 a pup (no licence) then that is living of the backs of dogs & needs reporting

There is the Commercial breeder that can breed 100 litters & more per year but as long as they stay within the rules & regs laid down to them one of wich is they can only breed from a ***** once in a calader year then that comes under a different legislation

Answer 8

It really depends on what you believe is " making money"



There is a big difference between earning a living and making a profit and any breeder would be stupid to make a profit, or they don't have a good accountant or it is BIG business with vast amounts of dogs breeding or several establishments.



Unlike with being employed, where you get your pay packet, taxes are taken off and the money you get is to pay your bills, food, entertainment etc.

Being self employed the money that comes in, is set against taxable allowances....buying a new breeding dog is a taxable allowance, the food you feed your dogs is, vets fees, health checks, the premises you use being rented or mortgaged, utility bills, the show fees, grooming, clipping..they are all 'tools of the trade' required to run your business......so before any 'profit' (money is made) all these things are set against your income, virtually all your expenses, everything you pay out.............so no of course they don't make a profit, however they are certainly they earning a living and a living most of them want to do, possibly started off as a hobby and became too expensive to continue as you can't claim back legitimate expenses if you are not self employed..........others that are and do it as a 'hobby' are either not declaring their income or are using all /most of their profit and setting it as a taxable loss.

Answer 9

Many good breeders make money off their pups. Cash transactions don't necessarily determine whether you're a good or bad breeder, health testing, OFA, showing, titling, respectable registries proving your dogs are what you say they are, thorough knowledge of your breed, responsible, ethical breeding practices like not breeding on first heat or every heat cycle, not giving puppies to the highest bidder but actually questioning buyers to determine if your breed (or even any dog) is right for them, willing to admit faults or unsavory characteristics of your breed to potential buyers, health guarantees that last the dog's lifetime, willingness to take back your dogs if the buyer can no longer care for it, etc are what make a good breeder.

Answer 10

Who would set out on a costly venture without the goal of earning the money back?



People who truly want to better the breed. That is what makes them reputable breeders.

Answer 11

Some good breeders might make a few bucks, but anything they makes goes back into the dogs. The point is they are not doing it for money they are doing it for the love of the breed and a purpose.

Answer 12

No it does not mean you don't make money. If you produce 10 litters a year and don't make money you shouldn't do anything involving money besides your regular Joe Schmoe job in your field. All of these crazy spending expenses and bullcrap. My vets give me discounts, I bring them my 20+ adult dogs, and every single adult dog that touches my hands for me to re-train and sell as PSDs. I bring them every single one of my 8-10 litters a year aka 60+ puppies a year. A LARGE part of their yearly is coming from my pocket and they know it. I don't bring pups in for the things a normal owner should, I know how to run IVs, sub-q and otherwise, and I am supplied these items directly from my vet. My pups go to the vet for only the most dire of circumstances, luckily, circumstances rarely seen.



Also if you've built a repertoire with your vet/s they still won't be charging you an arm and a leg for hip and elbow x-rays. Also people add in "health checks" expenses whatever they may be into every litter. Sorry but my dogs get these checks and tests ran at 24 months of age...one time...not before every litter. The first puppy I sell covers all the health checks of it's dam, tada. That said breeding isn't cheap, when you're feeding 20+ dogs the best food available (a raw diet) it costs cash. If I spend $1,000 on food a year per dog (which is actually about right) and have 20 or 25 dogs...do the math. That's more than some people earn in a calendar year. The income from selling the puppies has to cover that, and cover their needs as well not to mention to pay towards the kennel itself, the bills it incurs, and stuff you'd rarely even think of, silly things like nail clippers, feeding dishes, water pails, leashes, collars, tattooing, microchips, employed help, cleaning supplies (I go through about 3-5 gallons of bleach a week), even things as silly as TOYS end up costing a pretty penny! I have kongs and kong like toys coming out of my EARS, they're everywhere! I also probably have 5 or $600 worth of tug toys, well over $1,000 in sleeves and I have 5 bite suits (from Demanet, Ray Allen, and Schweikert) all are over $1,000 new. The e-collars I use retail for $249.99 and I have 15 or so of them. The bark collars I use retail for $129.99...I have at least 35 of them. Breeding done right is expensive...but you shouldn't be driving yourself into the poor house either.



Also: (Pet Peeve of mine..no pun intended with the "pet" -zing-) No puppy I've ever seen is worth "a few grand". The most expensive pups I'll ever produced are $2,500 and that's because I'm using an outside stud (a Vice Seiger at the WUSV). Had to add that in...I'm tired of people selling "Working puppies" for 3-5 grand...nobody who really works dogs is going to pay 3 or 4 or 5 grand for a puppy when they can import an adult with a title for a few bucks more and have an active working dog in 2-3 months. People who sell "working" puppies for that kind of cash are the ones who live off of people with money's naivete. (Steven Seagal comes to mind if anybody has been watching his series "Lawman"...he has two good dogs bought from a real good crook...that he paid $25,000 each for and I see sold every day for $5,000 fresh off the cargo plane :)

Answer 13

No. Reputable breeders make money, but they would still be in the showing business even if they weren't making money, does that make sense? They are in it to improve the good of the breed, not just to make a quick buck.

Answer 14

(this is from a website, that had pretty decent information link listed in sources)

Breeding Expenses



Descriptions of Expenses/Profits

(notes in parenthesis are mine)





Raising The Puppy





Purchase Of Puppy $1000



Puppy Shots $150



Food $400/year



Crate $80



Vet Bills $150 - $200/year



Tattoo $20 (cheaper than I paid, I spent around $35 in 1998)



Licenses $15/year (mine are 35 per year, intact dogs usually cost more than sterile ones)



Registration Fees $10





Showing Expenses





Conformation

Entries $880



Handler $3000 (in most breeds if you want to succeed at competition, this is a necessity)



Travel $1500





Obedience





Training Classes $80+/8 week session (minimum 5 sessions) (sometimes you can mitigate this by joining a club)



Entry Fees $160



Travel $300





Pre-Breeding Health Screens





Eyes (Annual) $20/year

(cheaper than I paid, at a cerf clinic, I pay around 35-45)



OFA $100 - $150



PennHip $150 - $250



Heart Exam $30+



Thyroid Screen $80



Brucellosis (each litter) $50





Breeding Related Expenses





Stud Fee $800/litter



Shipping $0 - $300/litter



Other testing as required by stud dog owner $50/litter



Whelping Supplies $100/litter



Vet Bills for Dam $60/litter (this seems cheap, an ultrasound alone can cost at least that much,+/- xray for headcount of puppies)



Vet Bills For Pups $500/litter



Food For Pups $100/litter



Registration Fees $20/litter



Advertising variable ( I only let it be known in my club when I had puppies avail)



Phone Bills $200/litter ( I did not find this to be true)



Extra Heat $300/litter



Extra Electric $70/litter





Total Expenses $20480





Breeding Expenses if problems occur





C-Section $600 ( I have never had to do this, but I know at our clinic, its more than that.)



Puppy Formula $80 (also low)



Other Vet bills Variable depending on problem



Time off from work







Income





Puppy Sales





Number of Litters 3



Puppies per litter 8 ( My breed has usually 3-5)



Pets $8400



Show $12000





Taxes Paid $5100





Profit/(Loss) ($5180)

Answer 15

How many times has this same subject been dredged up. You will get the same answers each time



DARCI: Wow, what breeder do you know that has 10 litters a year from one *****? You say that a ***** usually comes into heat FOUR times a year?

Answer 16

Being reputable merely means that they are known for producing healthy, well trained, pure bred, happy dogs. It doesn't matter if they make a lot of money or not.

Answer 17

I don't think money has anything to do with it. If the breeder sets a good and fair rice for the dogs they ought to be making a profit. But a breeder forcing their dog to have ten litters a year is terrible. The dog should ONLY breed when they come in heat and that is usually only about four times a year, sometimes more, many time less.

For a good breeder, at first there will be no profit to gain due to all the shots and vet care, then, with time there will be gain after pups are being bought.

What makes a breeder a good breeder is that they care about all their dogs and give them the best care and attention possible.