What do you think of this video?

Question

Everyone knows I love Mike Ellis, and somebody sent me this link on nature vs. nurture. He mentioned people using nature as an excuse..."Oh the dog either has it or it doesn't" but states he believes people use that as a crutch for bad dog training. Thoughts on that?

Answer 1

There's bad breeding, and there's bad training. Breeding gives you the possibilities, training gives you the actualities. Most people don't train anywhere near what is possible for their dog, and many blame genetics rather than working within what is possible for the dog. Its mainly an issue at the extremes of a continuum. When you start competing at high levels, genetics can end up playing a role in what the dog is capable of- some dogs are faster, stronger, more driven, have etc even with identical training and fitness. And when you are talking about certain skills such as herding, a very large part IS genetics- you simply aren't going to get a lab out there herding like a BC from herding lines! And you aren't likely to get a BC from show lines out there herding like a BC from herding lines, either, regardless of the training. You get what you breed for! At the other extreme, when you have really lousy genetics, it can play a big role in even pet training, if dogs have poor temperaments making them difficult to live with in a typical family situation. Training can mitigate some of that, but usually not all.

Answer 2

You and your "magic" links.



I love Ellis, I'm hoping to take some of his classes. I need the money to go that far and stay for a couple weeks lol I really dislike how Leerburg is doing the video rentals now. But...that's kinda OT.



I think it varies. Some dogs don't have "it".I think more often than not it's just an incompetent trainer.



A poorly bred dog can be ruined with the wrong training methods. The terrier I have now would become very fearful and unwilling to work if I used -R on him. Hell, I raise my voice and he drops and rolls on me. Back legs trembling. But that's a dog with a weak temperament. Even so a good trainer should be able spot that the method isn't working before the dog is pushed too far. Even then the dog could be turned around given time and an appropriate training style.



I just walked in a circle. hmmm

Answer 3

Um, where is the link????

Lol.



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I can't watch it all right now, so will probably add later.

He didn't exactly say that. He says that there is enough truth to it to keep the illusion going.



I kinda hear the opposite, not that a dog has it or that it doesn't, but that a lot of mediocre dogs are doing better because of training.



I will be back later. I do want to see the rest.



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Ah, I see where this is going.

That is not my experience with the K9s washed out from here. Our trainer uses the method you suggest and our dropout rate is still high.

I have to go, will be back.



@DSR - giving you a TU just for putting him in his place. Lol.



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Alright, I am back (couldn't waste my data package watching on my iPhone).

I don't disagree with him. I do believe that how the dog is raised can affect the dog. I don't really have a ton of experience in puppies. When I first read the question, I thought we were talking about washing out older dogs. I notice that even the "host" was saying that after 6 months, the superstar puppies were just average, and sold off to pets because he hadn't worked them to their potential.

So if we are talking washing out older dogs because they don't have "it", they agree.

What I was originally going to say was many working dog handlers don't get puppies, they get older dogs, past even the 6 months mentioned here. Also, if we are talking about people who are using these dogs for work purposes, time and money is invested in these dogs. Even if we suppose that the right training could take a dog to a higher level, most working dog handlers simply don't have the luxury of time. Time is money. I also think there is a big difference between training a dog to certify and a dog having "it". Which one would I rather having my back, the one who took considerable training to get the right drives/training, or the one who had it to start with and was enhanced with training.

The trainer here uses the same techniques mentioned by Ellis with all dogs. We still have a very high washout rate.

I think there is a considerable difference between washing out a Police K9 for not having "it" and washing out a Schutzhund hobby dog.



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I still think Kaper wouldn't have been suitable, but I agree with you too. I can't explain it. And I find such a considerable difference between he and Hary.

In a different setting, he may have been successful, even the trainer now (who was only a handler back then) says that. But the simple fact is we have time and budget constraints. We can't afford to take the extra time to bring out what is needed, if it can be brought out.

And his problem was tracking. Plain and simple.



Sorry, I can't see why you love him. I could never date a guy with longer hair than mine. LOL.



(I had more, but the rest of the video changed the context some and I am tired and cranky)

Answer 4

No actually, I didn't know you were in love with Mike Ellis. Admittedly, its a bit of a surprise, and certainly not something I expected to learn in the DS of YA. Anyway - Congratulations! My best wishes to the happy couple :-)



Now, your question is ...hard to follow and I have not watched the video (I already sat through the Royal Wedding...enough already! ) - but I think you are asking if people agree that a dog's failures is genetic - or if its how the dog was raised.



My view: Within accepted constraints for breed - its nurture. All people at some point (or points) fail their dog - not the other way around. I include myself in that statement.



Its why I say: Your dog is waiting for you.



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I too gave DSR a TU - being in love is still not an excuse to deviate from YA format.



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@Kaper: Ha! (Steven Segal eat your heart out)



On a serious note, where I trained puppies were worked with adults and began at 7 or 8 weeks. I watched the trainer's own dog (a Dutch Shepherd) deploy and bite off-lead at 14 weeks. If I didn't see it, I would not have believed it.

Answer 5

I have always thought that it was a combination of nature and nurture.



Which is why I am willing to work with problem dogs.....most of them don't have problems that are insurmountable in a stable environment and with consistent training.



I have also met dogs and horses (and people) that were just wired "wrong" and no amount of training could ever make them normal.



I am not even going to get into the "positive" training thing......as I have said earlier, I took a serious look at marker training, and found it unpalatable. If someone else wants to use it, and can do so effectively, thats fine.

Answer 6

curtis you goose! you forgot the link! and you got my hopes up too, for shame



i agree with him! =D like the video very well said! i mean some dogs never meet their full potential and some do depends on the owner and training.



you can buy from the best working lines around and still get a "dud" if you do not know what you are doing or arent providing the correct actions for that particular dogs because some trainings methods are good for some dogs and bad for others depending on the temperament and some trainers refuse to accept that some dogs need different methods of training.

Answer 7

There is no link to the video Curtis...



AS far as the statement goes...."The dog has it or it doesn't" can be true for certain things. For example, many dogs are cut from police and service dog training because they don't "have it".



But then again, there are certain things EVERY dog should "have". Things like basic commands and walking on a leash, not jumping on people, etc. Is that what you are getting at?

Answer 8

I think what he says makes a lot of sense. It is what I have always believed. I agree with what he says about the "range"and how it can be wide. How the trainer is responsible for where that dog ends up within that range.



How about if I ask him in person? I am doing a seminar with him on "engagement and Drive" in a couple weeks. How do you think he will do with my Pom. (My Friend keeps teasing me, she says "Diva is going to get her schutzhund on". Curtis, you have some equipment. Where do you think I can get a "finger Sleeve" for my pom?????

Answer 9

Wth are you talking about? What does this have to do with a video? I don't know who you are, much less who you like, and I don't know who Mike Ellis is.



Rephrase your question, I do not comprehend.



Ohhh I see. Apparently you're one of those "favorites" who gets away with anything and is everybody's best friend. Go ahead and thumbs down.



I don't think anybody uses "the dog has it or it doesn't" as any type of "crutch." I've never even heard of that before.