DS: What is your view on physical compulsion/corrections?

Question

Just want to see who out there uses these kinds of method.

I want to state that there is a HUGE difference between physical compulsion/corrections vs. abusing/beating. Just wanted to clarify that for some "trainers" out there.

I myself use physical corrections I would assume because I use a training tool - a prong collar. Maybe people see that as physical correction maybe not. Thoughts?

I have used physical compulsion (or maybe it was a correction lol) when my dog was testing his boundaries. He was barking at a kid I gave him a correction and he jumped up on my arm and snarled at me. I grabbed him by his neck and body slammed him to the ground. You could then see his brain start to work and he just stayed in the lay position until I gave him a release command.

I believe in physical compulsion when safety of a handler or any person for that matter is on the line. My trainer has taught me how to correct my dog with my voice or a prong collar but he has also said that sometimes you get into a situation where you have to use what nature gave you (this does not mean hitting or kicking) - and in the case of what I just said, I believe it was necessary. Dobermans like to test out boundaries and they can be very dominant which can lead to all sorts of behaviour issues if you let them assert dominancy over you.

So I just wanted to see what people's views were on this.
If you disagree with what I did the day he snarled at me - I would love to hear the alternatives in a situation where a very dominant dog is redirecting frustration on to its handler.

Answer 1

You do what you have to do to get your point across. One of my dogs, at around a year old decided to run after a kid. I picked him up by the nap of his neck and through him down a hill, he turned around to snap and I held him down until he cooled off. I had not choice he did not respond to a collar correction, it was grass and he was in no way injured but he got the message.



IMPO It is far better to stop the behavior at the first sign before they get the idea that it is OK to show any aggression. Especially in our breeds that are targeted as dangerous. I always say that your best defense against people that "judge" our breed of choice is to have the best trained dog.



Beating a dog does nothing except make the dog into a fear biter. Explaining to the dog that you are in charge is not abuse, it is training.



add: For all of you that think I abuse my dog by "body slamming" him, yeah right, I bet your dog doesn't weigh more then you do. I insist on total control of my dogs and if throwing him down for chasing a kid worked then by gawd I will do it once, since once is all it took.

Answer this-- would you rather have my dogs trained by proven methods which is not abuse, or would you rather see a Rottweiler, or Caucasian that can't be trusted around children and other dogs? I personally do not want my dogs destroyed by some dangerous dog bulls@@t legislation because people think it is cruel to train them.



No one in the dog section has any right to accuse me of abusing any animal. You don't know me and you don't know my dogs.



BTW Schutzhund has nothing to do with hitting, beating or in any way abusing the dog, it is about the dog being completely focused on you. That is acheived by the dog respecting the owner. It could not be possible if we were beating the s@@t out of our dog.

Answer 2

I don't think using physical compulsion/corrections are bad. But I don't recommend it because I think it's less effective and reliable.



I'm for positive training methods now. I use to do things the old fashioned way but I have found modern training methods to be much more effective for what I ask for from a dog. Because I am for positive training methods it doesn't mean I am against physical corrections because it's mean. I just find it less effective and reliable.



There are many misconceptions I have heard here about positive training methods. I think those of you who think it's about coddling and not hurting their feelings should read up more about it. In fact I challenge you to try it. By try, I don't mean try one little thing. But to start fresh and and try out the entire concept before you form an opinion against it. There is a reason why most modern trainers changed over to now using positive training methods. Because it works better.

Answer 3

A well-trained dog makes everyone happy, including his owner. Take a little time training him, and you'll never regret it; you'll always have an obedient dog by your side. Find more https://tr.im/Wxmdm



By their nature, dogs are pack animals with a well-defined social order. Through basic training, you need to consistently make sure your puppy understands that you are the leader, not him. So in teaching him the basic rules, you take on the role of pack leader.



To fit into the family circle, your dog must be taught to recognize his name and such commands as come, heel, lie down and sit.

Answer 4

THANK YOU BYB’s have little caulk!!!! I’ve never come right out and said it, (I’m not that blunt) but yes, the Schutzhund trainers on here seem to get a kick out of being abusive, macho idiots! It’s a guy thing…I suppose it boosts their egos are something.



Ms Manners – Zoos use compulsion? I thought that was a thing of the past! Karen Pryor has forever changed the world with clicker training and it’s VERY useful with wild animals who, as Nellana stated, cannot be corrected with shock collars, leash corrections, body slamming, alpha rolling…all that stuff.



Zoos are changing the way they handle their wild animals. It’s hard enough to mimic each animal’s wild environment/habitat and we do NOT need the added stresses and dangers of putting gorillas, bears, etc. under anesthesia for every single medical procedure/checkup when it could easily be done with a clicker. Animals understand clicker training and it’s an effective way to communicate with them and explain what we want of them WITHOUT making them scared or forcing them to do anything.



Ok…on to the question. Yes, I do use physical corrections. My dog has a prong collar and I do issue corrections when necessary but those corrections do NOT hurt her in any way. I've seen with my own eyes that prong collars and choke collars do not cause pain or harm to the dog when used properly.



Other than that, I’m a positive reinforcement person! I LOVE all aspects of positive reinforcement training and that’s how I mostly train by. Positive reinforcement includes training with clickers (clicker training) treats, praise and toys.



I admire trainers like Karen Pryor, Patricia McConnell and Pat Miller.



Please go ahead and take a look at my profile for the things I do NOT advocate.

Answer 5

I use physical compulsion as a part of my training. I just don't use it only in so called dangerous situations. When I place my hands on the dog's collar, leash or body that is compulsion because the dog has no choice not to do so. One the recall if the dog disobeys the come command I will pull him to me on a long line. If he is not on a long line, I will walk him down and remind him sternly that come means come right now. Placing a dog in a sit or down position is compulsion. There is no volunteering in performing these positions. If my dog comes at me or anyone else with teeth there will not be as much compulsion but things will get awfully physical. This would be a "come to Jesus" correction that the dog would get.

Answer 6

I have a 5mo old miniature schnauzer, who I brought home at 12 weeks. She's my first dog, and I have to admit, I started out purely passive/+R with her. For teaching commands, that works fine, but I've learned within the past month that it isn't working for anything behavioral.



It took a growling/nipping hissy fit thrown in the middle of puppy class, causing the trainer to have to intervene, to make me realize that I had to use corrections too. The trainer put a hand around her muzzle and guided her with her other hand into a lay, and held her there a couple of minutes until she calmed down. She then explained to me how to use these sort of corrections appropriately.



Now, admittedly, I was ticked off at the trainer for this initially, but after I took some time to cool off and really think about it, I realized that she was right. Using the advice she gave me, I've been able to curb her nipping a lot better than just making a high-pitched squeak and walking away (because that stopped working after the first week I had her).



As for collar corrections... I read so much stuff when I was researching the breed/about small dogs in general, that I'm really hesitant to use collar corrections for fear of hurting her trachea. The trainer did say that if we want to learn how to use training collars correctly, to just come to her and ask... so I might do that next class.

Answer 7

Not much I can really add to the bulk of answers with detail I would only be repeating.



I am a firm believer in using the correction that fits the dog. With 10 dogs in my house the majority simply need a *voice* correction. I don't get physical with any dog I own unless it is deemed necessary by ME. Not someone else. Including my husband or a neighbor for that matter.



My APBT knows how to loose leash walk. She knows to keep her attention on the walk and is not allowed to fixate on any person, dog, wildlife etc. She knows not to react to barking dogs behind fences. She can acknowledge for a few seconds then her attention must revert back to her calm walk.



When she decides to *test* her training and breaks the walk by barking, lunging, growling etc she is corrected with serious physical compulsion.



Letting her do it ONCE without immediate, serious consequences means she will do it again and again.



The physical corrections I use are my business. I know my dog. I know what works and what does not.



And the last neighbor who hollered at me from their front porch I was *abusing* my dog was invited to call animal control. I even gave her my address,



ADD: I have a little bitty problem being called an animal abuser. In fact I won't allow that bovine excrement to be spewed towards me or any of the other regulars on this site. I don't know who the hell you are but I suggest you get out of Dodge with your gosh durn *ask* crap. I don't *ask* my dogs to do anything I *TELL* them and while we are at it I invite you to come to my house I take a good look at what you are saying are *abused dogs*. All 10 of them. I'lll pay for your f^cking plane ticket.

Answer 8

No, I agree and I would have done the same thing if either my bulldogs or my weims tried that ******** with me. They know not to, but **** happens sometimes, and you have to protect yourself and the dog. My puppy is learning her place now, she is of course teething so I am giving her a slight break because we all know how much that hurts, she's lost at least 2-4 teeth this week. I can't wait till those needles are gone though. Edit- My house looks like a crime scene because she is getting blood everywhere lol.



My mentor is the same way as well, her dogs know not to try anything with her. I don't see it as abuse cause it is not, I think some dogs do need harder corrections than others as well.

Answer 9

Different dogs need different things. It's as I told all the Schutzhund trainers on here, if they tried to correct *my* dog by kicking her and "putting the fear of god" into her, I would shoot them on the spot. And yes, I am a "bunny hugger". Applying physical corrections to ALL dogs is poor training technique and it makes me question the sanity of the trainer.



You try and correct a Greyhound the same way you correct a GSD and you'll break the dog. You try to correct a Smooth Collie the way you correct a Mal and you'll break the dog. Yet if you pin a Yorkie to the ground, they might not even notice for 5 minutes.



Now, I've seen many a Bouvier that needed to be tackled and pinning a Dobe that was acting agressively towards a child needed *something* to wake him up; "Baby wanna widdle cookie" wasn't going to cut it. Doing that to a Lab puppy that was wandering off to say 'Hi' to someone or smelling something on the ground would be abusive (which I have also seen done by one of those small penis "physical corrections are the ONLY way" guys).



If a person is CONSTANTLY having to prong and pin and kick and tackle, then the dog is not properly tempered or properly trained, one of the two or maybe both. Testing boundaries occasionally is one thing but a dog that is constantly breaking the rules and refusing to behave to the point of constant physical correction, king show dog or SchIII, I question the temperament and training of the dog AND handler both.



+ DeeDawg, I'm not really sure how my answer contradicts proofing. I'm just not sure specifically what you are referring to in my answer, respectfully.

Do I think that a Lab puppy needs to be tackled and slammed to the ground for being distracted during proofing? No. The punishment doesn't fit the crime. If he wanders off despite commands, then physically grabbing him and refocusing him is in order. Body slamming? No.



But, one should also prevent the problem before it starts; your correction command (verbal) needs to be fairly strong when proofing and training.



As far as anticipated correction, I'm not sure. Are we talking about the dog always wearing the prong collar so that he knows that if he does something wrong, the collar is there to correct him? My question would be, if the collar is a *training* tool, then when is the dog considered *trained* if he's always in need of that threat?



But again, every dog is different.



How do *I* proof with positive reinforcement? The same basic way that you do, I assume. In an extended "Stay", my dog gets sits and stay commands and hand signals. If she get up, she get an 'eh-eh' and we start over. Positive Reinforcement doesn't mean no corrections. If she gets spooked by something that terrifies her, then she gets reassurances that she's safe (she's small and has been injured before) and we approach the scary thing or she sits under my voice commands and reassurances. My dog trusts me so she trusts that I wouldn't lead her into danger. Hurting a dog (mentally or physically) breaks that trust. My training is trust based, not fear based.



Nellana - If you don't grab the puppy, how is it going to come back? Are you saying you advocate letting it wander off into the street?



DeeDawg - I see what you are saying about chasing rabbits and tennis balls and when my dog is "on", we have no problems with it. We 'proofed' via verbal commands and a slight tug of the leash. My dog has VERY high prey drive and when mid chase after a squirrlel or rabbit, she will stop in her tracks if I tell her to (something her breed isn't supposed to be able to do). If she's told to wait during fetch, she waits until she's released (something else her breed isn't supposed to be able to do). Not once have I body slammed her, kicked her, smacked her, spanked her, or even snapped the leash. Like I said, it was ALL done via treat reward, verbal commands, verbal corrections, redirections, hand signals, and the slightest pressure on her leash. But again, that's my dog.

Answer 10

UHave2B and Nellana are perfect examples of the dog training spectrum.



One uses bullying and too much correction and weak rewards (sorry, but "praise" isn't a reward just because your dog gets excited when you pet it).



The other is right in training her dog with toys and treats to do behaviors, but won't have a dog who complies reliably because she doesn't proof her training with corrections.



Obviously, whenever 2 extremes are involved, it's often the Golden Middle that should be sought. In this case it'd be a trainer who teaches behaviors through positive reinforcement and REAL reward not a useless (in the dog's eye) pat on the head and thumbs up. Who here works for a pat on the head? Didn't think so. You do work for food though, without your job you'd be hungry! BUT, if you incorporate the corrections UHave2B uses AFTER the dog is taught every behavior you want it to know? Then it will know it MUST comply and that complying is NOT an option. The job analogy fits here as well. Of course you work for a check, BUT if you don't do satisfactory work you get in trouble. Get in trouble enough, you get fired. Those who hold steady jobs are "well trained", those who bounce from job to job and lazy people aren't well trained (to work)...TRAIN YOUR KIDS the value of hard work! And train your dogs with reward and corrections as necessary!



Common sense ALWAYS wins. Overly harsh methods are a '80's and before fad, and all treats and kisses is about a 2002-now fad...using both to achieve your goal is the undying truth to the correct way to acquire a fully trained dog without being an egotistical bullying jerk or a yella' bellied man servant who feeds the good stuff on command.

Answer 11

My dog understands physicality, whether it be me petting his head, moving him out of my space, a leash pop with the prong or stim from the collar, better than any other form of communication, esp. in the early stages of training. It's not painful, but it's how he's wired to understand communication. After we establish some communication, he knows a few verbal commands, and eye contact is important, but physical contact is the most direct route to communication as far as I'm concerned. One side of that coin is the physical correction.



Once I saw how relieved my dog was when he finally understood what I wanted and we were really communicating, which was not coincidentally when I learned to train with a prong, we moved ahead so quickly. We bonded, and we communicated, and we could live peacefully together. He needs that mental exercise. The corrections don't hurt him, he doesn't shy away from them, and he doesn't shut down during training. I wish I had a video of when I first got him to now. He was not a confident dog, and I figured he'd always be like that. Now he adapts to all manner of new situations, and is confident and happy. We can communicate now, so he knows to look to me for direction in new situations, and to be calm about it, and it's a beautiful thing.



Oh, and any dog, I don't care whose it is and what their personal beliefs are, that jumps up on me gets a knee to the chest (not hard, but enough to get the point across). I don't tolerate that kind of intrusion and dominance display. If you don't want your dog kneed, don't let it just up- easy as that. Generally yea, no kitting or kicking, no anger, no tantrums. The knee to the chest is just the most tried and true way I know of breaking that bad habit.

Answer 12

Dogs use corrections with each other (I have never seen a dog hand another dog a cookie), so, in my experience they understand it instinctively, and it is the fastest way to get through to a dog, especially one you dont know.



In your case, I would consider what you did an appropriate response - any dog that makes the mistake of snarling at me or trying to bite me will immediately wish it hadnt.



But a correction doesnt have to be harsh - I have one dog for whom simply saying her name is enough.....a leash correction with her harness is extremely harsh for her.



I have another dog for whom a prong collar is no big deal.



The others are somewhere in between.



I will most often use a sharp tone, a finger poke or a snap from my finger. Thats enough for most of my dogs.

*****

Nellana - seriously?



How do you think those dolphins got INTO the tank in the first place? COMPULSION.



And wild animals in the zoo are tranquilized or restrained for treatment - that is COMPULSION.



You cant deal with any animal without some form of compulsion at some point.

Answer 13

As long as you love and take very good care of the dog, then I see no harm.

I personally couldn't do what you did because I am a big softy, but then people like me who have this in mind have alot of problems with their dogs.

Answer 14

i've got APBT and Bandogges.

the APBT is pretty soft, although she'll push boundaries- but the Bandogges would have people think they own the world.



compulsion can work for more than just corrections- take e collar training- if you're training a recall using your adjustable- you increase the stim as the dog gets farther and decrease as the dog gets closer- that's compulsion.

training a dog not to pull at the leash, or to pay attention to where you are walking- you may be tightening the collar (prong, check, or choke) when the dog is not performing as desired, and when the dog is in the desired place, or looking at you, you're immediately letting it go slack- the objective that dogs will seek to continue the comfort is a basic one, and very effective.



physical corrections, so long as they're not abusive, aren't necessarily a bad thing. when Tank was training and he'd stop paying attention, sometimes i would give him a poke in the thigh to bring him back to reality. i've also been known to hoist a dog right off the ground with all his feet in the air by his collar and give him a little jostle for a really bad infraction. obviously, i wouldn't keep him up more than a second or so, but such a dramatic correction does tend to make the dog go "whoa, if she can do that, she must be God. i better listen and not give her any crap"



corrections should only be used for disobeying known commands or disregarding a consistent rule (for example, you say SIT, dog does not sit, or sits too slowly, you administer appropriate correction- OR dog is not allowed on bed. dog jumps on bed. you administer correction)

and compulsion can be used for training with or without a command (although it's unfair if the dog isn't receiving some sort of direction, whether or not it's immediately named)



corrections and compulsion of course should be avoided initially- (i.e. training in preparation, so as to avoid them, using the correction to proof once the command is known) but at some point in the dog's life, it's going to refuse, ignore, or fail to perform, and at that point, there has to be some sort of recourse, because for many dogs, simply withholding their reward won't be good enough. proofing (for most) needs to involve some deterrent. really- there are a lot of dogs who think "chasing that rabbit is WAY better than the cookie you've got" but will likely see differently if they anticipate a correction AND losing their reward. "i don't want to chase that rabbit, my neck will hurt, and i won't get a cookie!"

example- i've had people say "i dont need to physically correct my dog, i just say NO, FOOEY, ACKKK"... whatever is their NO command. BUT- how did the dog associate that negative command with them REALLY needing to stop what they're doing? probably, because at some point, someone scruffed the dog or gave it some sort of physical correction in conjunction with the voice command.



the only way i would have handled the handler redirection if my dogs snarled at me, i'd probably whack their head on the ground a few times as i was putting them to the ground, you and everyone else knows handler aggression and/or redirection at the handler is never acceptable, for any reason.

Answer 15

I support it 100%. A lot of dogs are dominant, and DO need a physical correction once in a while. I've had to correct my dog harshly a few times, one by doing a leash correction, one by biting (not hard) him back.

Answer 16

i do what i have to do, to get my dogs to stop whatever unwanted behaviour they are doing. so yes i do believe in physical corrections

Answer 17

I am all for physical correction.



The method of training I use is based solely on praise and correction.



Obviously the amount of correction used is suited to the dog and the behavior.



The snarling behavior your dog exhibited got the EXACT kind of correction it deserved.



As you said you can correct dogs with a voice or a collar correction of varying degrees. My Collie simply needs a pull up of the collar and she melts. Other dogs need more. People have to know their dogs and what level of correction it needs.



I do have a lady I know who has Bichons who has never gotten that her dog does not need the same correction as a Rottweiler. She winds shutting her dogs down. Her corrections are not only offensive to those that know how to train dogs, but of course to the bunny huggers that watch



Dogs-like children- appreciate things in Black and White. Grey areas lead to confusion.

Giving my dog the responsibility to choose between right and wrong-and them knowing what I expect- gives them confidence, because they know what to expect every time.

As my trainer says, if my dog earns a correction-never dissapoint them.



I joined a new training class to work my dog for Utility- they are cookie trainers. However they understand I don't work that way. I can tell you I am looked at like the devil -like the night I explained to them how all my dogs are trained with a forced retrieve. They don't get that weeks go into training a dog to retrieve before the dog is EVER responsible to do it. Of course guess whos dog has the only reliable retrieve in the class.



I recently attended my breeds Nationals. I had the ONLY dog that was not being bribed or cajoled to maybe perform in the class. When I cam out of the ring each time I was literally swarmed by exhibitors complementing my dogs incredible performance. My dog had two perfect scores at Nationals and won her classes.



I will continue to train my dogs this way, as I need reliable dogs- you see I live on a ranch and them obeying on one command can literally save their life.

Answer 18

Let's start out by saying I'm not a trainer, so really I can't tell you right from wrong.. just my opinion.



I would not use a prong collar. I don't really believe there's a need for a "correction" via prong collar. Prong collars are used to ease up pulling, which can be done without or to get attention, which can be done without. Basically, I'd always pick a regular collar, harness or head lead over a prong- so I wouldn't have one in the first place. I feel that a prong collar, electric collar, etc. bring out fear in dogs and aggression is nearly always fear based.



If my dog "jumped on my arm" (do you mean, jumped up or actually lunged at you?). I would turn my body, partly so I don't give reaction and partly so my face is out of the line of fire, and remove him from the situation immediately.



I wouldn't use a reaction as intense as choking or body slamming unless I felt that I was going to be attacked at that moment and from what you described (though of course I can't see it so I don't really know) it didn't seem that way.

Answer 19

Well, dogs are being abused here left, right and centre. UHave2Be had perfect scores without bribing......gee!!.....and you think that is *because* you use corrections?? You obviously have never watched some of the great clicker trained and positively rewarded dogs here in the UK who work their socks off with no toy, treat, whatever in sight. If I had to body slam my dog, bite it.....I'd give up owning a dog. Even Byb's, who is all for positive training, would physically grab a young dog for a slight infraction. To be perfectly honest, what is happening here is that you people don't understand dogs and don't want to be bothered even thinking about understanding dogs. (You *think* you understand dogs, but that's different from actually understanding them.)



But to your question. You have a "dominant" Doberman which is testing the boundaries. He was barking at a kid. Don't you have basic obedience commands that the dog would obey? If my dog was barking at a kid, I'd ask for a down. Firstly, he would obey me, which places me in control of the situation, and secondly, he has stopped barking at the kid. (Why was he barking in the first place? Does he have an iffy temperament? Was the kid winding him up?) Or I would ask for a Stop, Quiet, or ask him to go into heel.....anything at all that takes his attention off the kid, and on to me. I would then have to ask myself why my well-trained dog is barking at a kid. To be perfectly honest, your dog isn't trained well at all, is it? It's barking at a kid, and then has a go at you.....that's not a well trained dog, that's a liability......probably caused by your "so-called" training. The problem with compulsion/correction is that at some point, if you have a mentally strong dog, it's going to take offence.....and you can't blame it. You either have a dog that is totally fed up with correction training, or you have a dog with a bad temperament. Either way, it is, as I said, a liability.



DeeDawg asked how you proof without correction. That shows how little thought has gone into training. If you look at clicker training, or any positive training, then proofing is extensive.....well, depending on who the trainer is, I suppose. For example, I'm training a young dog at the moment. She is a very friendly dog and wants to go and speak to every person and dog she sees. How did I stop her from running off to speak to everyone and want to be with me instead? I spent months and months on getting her strong on her play with me, until other people and dogs were no longer interesting to her......playing with me was much more fun. (If she was an unfriendly dog, the same would apply, and she wouldn't even be interested in looking at a kid, never mind barking at it.) In proofing her h/w position, I ask for the h/w position, then wave her beloved toy in front of her....she has to look at me before getting her toy. THAT is proofing. No correction necessary. I also have a STOP command in place just in case.



Just because you can abuse dogs, doesn't mean that you should. I do wonder why you have never looked at positive training? You have to admit that you can't use force on a dolphin, a chicken, a wild animal that needs it's paw examined in a zoo......how do these people do their training? They sure as hell don't body slam, bite or be in any way physical......because you can't.....well, you could try with a leopard, but I don't think you'd come out of it well. Whenever people tell me they use compulsion I ask them how they would train a dolphin to jump higher. You have to think "outside the box" as they say. Obviously way beyond some people on here.



ETA:- In reply to your diatribe. I have owned high-drive GSD's. Currently own five dogs, one of which is a male Groen.......**very** high drive. Most Shutzhund dogs that I know are highly trained......with toys. You obviously have never, ever seen a well-trained dog that has not been trained by compulsion.....their *want* to work is incredible. The fact that you cannot make the jump from training a dog to training a dolphin shows that you have never examined the concept of real positive training. Never heard of Karen Pryor then?



ETA:- You said...Quote: "But he has triggers and sometimes if I don't catch it fast enough his attention is completely diverted. Which is exactly what is going to happen to your dog one day when you don't have your precious toy." Unquote. Read my mail again. My dogs are not interested in other dogs or other people. They have been *taught* that being with me is far more fun, far more interesting than anything else that is going on.....they wouldn't even be looking at a kid, never mind barking at it. **Especially** the high-drive dogs......the higher the drive, the harder the proofing has to be before they go anywhere. You're getting mad cos I've hit a nerve.......your dog was more interested in that kid than it was in you. You weren't training your dog at that point to work through a distraction.....and you should have been.



ETA:- DeeDawg.....I used my youngster as an example. I have a STOP command for bunnies, ball being thrown, etc. All of that is part of our proofing. (We train in a park that has bunnies. :-)) We do 10 minute down stays as part of our obedience tests.....we go to shows every weekend.......10 minutes is required, but the dogs are all capable of doing more. My youngster is working with no toy......see my previous explanation......we build up to what the dog is capable of doing. The adult dogs would not glance at a kid, never mind bark at it, which is the question that was put. Let me repeat, the dogs all work and pay attention to us with no toy in sight. Only after they do the work that is required, are they given a reward. And, let me assure you, if my dog was required to drop and stay for a few hours, I would proof it for that. :-)



ETA:- For DeeDawg......I've just remembered something that happened years ago. My parents had two of my dogs out for a walk, and went into town. (This is a busy town, with lots of people and traffic.) They put the dogs into a Sit Stay outside a shop and left them there for about two hours. When they came out, the two GSD's were still there......they had never been taught a two hour stay.....but they knew what Stay meant. :-))) Like you said, real life.



ETA:- for Curtis M. You said: "The other is right in training her dog with toys and treats to do behaviors, but won't have a dog who complies reliably because she doesn't proof her training with corrections." That's me you're talking about. :-) You have obviously never proofed a dog with mild corrections. If my dog breaks a stay, and I say "No reward for you" it tries harder to stay the next time.....and the next time....and the next time. With-holding reward makes the dog work *harder* to get the reward the next time. So once all the proofing is done, you have a 100% reliable stay. (Or whatever it was you were training.) But the proofing is not just with-holding treats. Once a dog can do a stay, for example, we then chuck balls about, bang on things, make loud noises, etc., etc. Our dogs learn to ignore because they know that the reward is coming if they stay put. And the only correction is with-holding reward. You should try it. :-)



You also said:- " BUT, if you incorporate the corrections UHave2B uses AFTER the dog is taught every behavior you want it to know? Then it will know it MUST comply and that complying is NOT an option. The job analogy fits here as well. Of course you work for a check, BUT if you don't do satisfactory work you get in trouble. Get in trouble enough, you get fired." Okay.....if you correct a dog after the dog knows the behaviour and is doing it well.....why the correction at all? It's doing the work, so why correct it? Shouldn't it get the pay check? And a human at work will not work well if he/she is constantly getting into trouble. It makes people more nervous, more stressed, more *likely* to make mistakes. Rewarding good work is more reliable than correcting bad.......there is incentive there for good work and good work relations. (Clicker training does work on humans. :-)



ETA:- BYB's....I would not have an untrained dog in an unsafe area.....so grabbing would not be an option.