Should we review our objections to tail docking.?

Question

I have always objected to tail docking. This week I saw evidence that in some respects has put another aspect on this.

I have never had a Spaniel; however a friend is getting a Spaniel puppy in six weeks time. The breeder remarked that she was sorry that she could not dock the puppy’s tails. I have always thought that the new rules were commendable and I was overjoyed that this breeder was observing the rules. Now I think that my views have in some respects changed

For the last two week I have observed Spaniels and their tails. They don’t just wag their tails. A happy Spaniel seems to be incapable of stopping its tail from constantly thrashing backwards and forward every minute of the day. I have a GSD and she waves her tail and lots of dogs just do this.

I met a man who was a dog handler in the prison service and his dog was wearing an Elizabethan collar and its tail was bandaged. The dog was just ten months old and it was being trained to sniff out drugs. His dog had suffered for several weeks with a bleeding tail before part of this was amputated. However the dog still had a fairly long stump and I asked the man why the vet had not had more removed and he told me that if more had been removed it could have proved fatal. (I did not understand this, can someone please explain?).

I have continued to observe how Spaniels wag their tails and I have come to the conclusion that their tails are a liability, especially with working dogs. However I suspect that other breeds were having their tails docked unnecessarily and the thought of ear cropping still appals me.

There are Boxers whose tails are still intact and I cannot see why their tails were in the past docked. I will continue observing dogs which used to have their tails routinely docked. Nevertheless for Spaniels I think that it might be beneficial for them to have their tail docked when they are a few days old, IF AND ONLY IF THE BREEDER KNOWS HOW TO DO THIS WITHOUT INFLICTING PAIN.

Answer 1

FYI, tail docking is done under three days of age and before the nervous system is fully functional. Neonatal puppies continue to develop their neurological functions after birth, which is also why eyes and ears don't open for another 14 days.



At three days of age, there is very little pain and the puppies object more to being held firmly during the process than they do to the actual docking or banding. Within minutes of the procedure, the pups are back with the mother and nursing strongly with little to no vocalization at all.



There is more pain and trauma associated with a spay surgery than tail docking in neonates!



I would also remind people that dogs are not the only species docked and docking has never been done for cosmetic purposes. Sheep and cattle are also docked for health reasons (reduce the occurance of parasite invasion like screw worm, hygiene, etc...)



As the owner of a docked breed, I can assure everyone that they have no problems with canine communication. They convey happiness with the wagging of a nub and their entire hind end, they have no issues with balance as proven by the unrefuted success the breed achieves in agility, SAR work and in the agile moves shown with herding stock. Watch an Aussie slide under a steer hoof as it goes in to grip that hock and tell me they have issues with balance.

Answer 2

The original breeder of Dobermann wanted to create an intelligent, alert and physically capable guard/personal protection dog. Traditionally the tail was docked & the ears cropped to prevent injury, improve hearing & to make the breed appear more striking & intimidating.



If the Dobermanns were to be bred, raised & trained to work, then yes, the pups should be docked & this would fall within the working dog exemption in the current UK legislation. However if someone wanted to show & work their dogs, the breeder would not be able to determine at a few days old which pups to dock.



If a pup is professionally docked a few days after it’s whelped, it would not suffer any long terms effects from the procedure & would quickly recover when placed back with its dam & litter mates. It is the amateurs that do not know what they are doing & botch the procedure that have given the practice of docking a bad name & attracted adverse publicity.



The current docking legislation does need to be reviewed & amended where breeds would suffer injury from not being docked.

Answer 3

In the past I've always preferred Spaniels with a docked tail, I though it looked better and was more practically for the dog. When it came to getting my springer my mum was determined that the dog would have a tail and so I had no say in this, however I found it quite hard to find a litter of undocked springer's despite the fact it was after the docking law, because it was a working spaniel I was looking for, not show, and the majority are still docked in order to be worked. I did manage to find a puppy in the end and my little springer is almost one and so far had no problems with her tail.

She is a HIGH energy, working stock, springer who is always wagging her tail. The only bad thing about her tail, is that because she is so clumsy she often wags it in the fire, luckily she hasn't burnt it, but we have to watch her now around the fire! Closing doors is sometimes a problem and occasionally it gets stepped on, other than that I have grown used to the tail. I actually really like it and some dogs look odd to me without them!



When the puppy is passed a certain age, normally about 5 days, the bones have already began to form properly from the tail to the spine and so properly docking a dog past this age, can easily caise damage to the dogs spine.



I believe that the only reason a dog should be docked is for working purposes. I think that if my spaniel was being worked in the fields her tail would probably of been injured by now. The likes of Jack Russel's benefit in being docked because the dog needs to be pulled out of rabbit holes by the top of the tail, and so the dog is docked to prevent the tail being pulled from the bottom, resulting in spinal injuries. However dogs should not be docked for looks and all breeds that once would of been docked, look much better with tails. They look very elegant. I have to say I prefer undocked dogs now. I wouldn't mind owning a docked springer, as my aunties springer was docked and it would of been a disaster if it wasn't, yet the next dog I would like to own, I have decided will be an Airedale Terrier and that, for sure, will be undocked.

The consequences of not docking a working dog-http://www.aegisdobes.com.au/images/cdb2.jpg



Some undocked dogs, that I believe look much better-

http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/undocked-rottweiler.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Airedale.jpg

http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/springerwelshTullyLudo.jpg

http://image02.webshots.com/2/7/92/69/80579269ZzmysY_ph.jpg

http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/BTerrierS-cWheatenAUSShaemus.jpg

Answer 4

When tails are docked properly, at 2-3 days old, the puppies feel little to no pain because the nerve endings are not developed. It's really more painful to remove dewclaws, but I've yet to see anyone objecting to that. There is the argument also that since good tails have not been selected for, there may be defects that have cropped up over time which would make the dog look odd or silly and the same can be said for ears which are normally cropped.



ADD: Christina S, I accidentally gave you a td, sorry! Meant to hit the other button.

Answer 5

Have you actually witness a tail dock on a newborn pup? The pain is minimal if felt at all. I've seen several pups docked either by the vet or a very experienced breeder using hemostats, guess how many pups slept right through the procedure? Most. If there was any squealing it was at the faint sensation of pressure, NOT pain. the fact they were away from the warmth and smell of their mother, or being handled.



The nervous system of a 2-3 day old pup is not fully formed. Watch a puppy when it sleeps, all that twitching is from the connections actually fully forming.



I am all for docking as long it is done in a safe and knowledgeable manner.



"However I suspect that other breeds were having their tails docked unnecessarily" Ever seen a herding dog that's been injured by a ticked off mother animal? That tail is a liability since it gives the animal something else to bite and/or stomp on.



In the doberman the tail was docked to prevent people from having something large enough to pull on to prevent dog from doing its job, guarding, and causing sever harm.

Answer 6

i have 2 yorkies, but the breeder i had purchased them from came to me already with docked tails, i personally think aesthetically looks better (this is my personal opinion and preference) but getting it docked after they are like 8 months old, i personally wouldn't, it seems like it might be too painful, something that should have been done as a young puppy.imagine a grown boy getting circumcised at age 10 or 11, seems kinda cruel.

Answer 7

Docking of working dogs is still legal - and rightly so. The only undocked dog i have ever witnessed on a shoot nearly died after catching it on barbed wire - as a dog grows there is a large artery which develops in the tail so it lost a lot of blood.



Docking on certain workers is a necessity but personally i see no need for it on pets.

Answer 8

It is still legal to dock the tails of working gundogs in the UK. #



Jennifer: Herding dogs do not need their tails docked ! Border Collies atre the ultimate herding dog and never have theirs docked, why would they? When a Border Collie is herding, the tail is held low and still, there is nothing that would injure it.



Spaniels, when hunting, rotate their tails wildly like helicoptor blades and often get them damaged in brambles and thorns with the thrashing. If they do this regularly, the tail never properly heals.



Patient Paws: Sorry love, but I have had working Border Collies for 35 years and never seen one with a damaged tail as you describe and am LMAO at the thought of a "nippy sheep" ROFL!



EXTRA: Poppy - for goodness sake I am from the UK where the Border Collies originated from ! Have you ever watched a true working sheepdog ? ANd I do not mean a dog shifting animals around in a small arena, I mean WORKING on rough ground in all weathers. It matters not what the terrain is, Scottish Highlands, to English lowlands, to Welsh Hills, if the dog is allowing the sheep to step on it or get behind it's butt it is either untrained or no good at its job !



The true working sheepdog never flies it's tail over it's back and "wagging" a tail in a working sheepdog would indicate poor temperament and unsuitability as a working stock dog.

The low carried tail is absolutely not going to get caught in long grasses or brambles I can assure you.



The same applies to dogs that work cattle. They do sometimes get kicked and injured in the head or get broken legs, but they do not get "tails ripped off by the herd" LOL



I have NEVER EVER seen a sheep or cow bite a dog. Sheep use their heads to butt if they get half a chance when protecting lambs, or a ram will try it on with a weak dog.



For anyone who has not noticed, sheep are OMNIVORES, their mouth is not developed for gripping and biting, only grazing.



The breeders and shepherds in the ISDS would be AGHAST at the thought of anyone suggesting that Border Collie tails should be docked !



Please see the link below, there are also video clips on there.

Notice the position and lack of movement in the tail in the 2nd link on Google vids.

Answer 9

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Answer 10

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Answer 11

I don't agree that the docking of tails is necessary. I have seen puppies tails being docked and agree that little pain is involved. However, ear cropping tends to be done at a much older age and does cause pain; there is no reason for this cruel practice other than cosmetic preferences.

I have used kelpies and border collies for many many years herding cattle and sheep, and occasionally horses. I have seen many dogs kicked or with paws trod on, but I have never seen a dogs tail being trod on. I don't see why this part of the dog's anatomy is at any more risk than another, personally. The dog has it's eyes on the herd or flock, it doesn't turn it's back so it's tail is rarely exposed.

I don't really see that docking of spaniels and other gundog breeds is necessary, I used to take my springer spaniel on field trials with a full tail and have to say I preferred it that way; it was helpful for spotting her with that 'flag' wagging above the long grass! It would be helpful to know what happened to the dog with the bleeding tail you mentioned?

The only work a dog does where tail docking is beneficial for the dog's health in my opinion is when dogs were regularly used for fighting. As this cruel practice is now illegal, I see no longer real use for it. But I suppose it is down to preference.

Answer 12

I have seen a few tails which have tip injuries that are difficult to get to heal, some of these have required partial tail amputations to eventually get a cure. I have also seen, probably a commensurate number, of cosmetically docked tails which have problems with healing. The difficulty with those is that there is often very little tissue left to try and close over any defect.



It isn't possible for anyone to amputate the tail of a pup without causing pain. Logic tells me this. The operation is carried out with scissors and the tails are basically cut off and cauterised or ligated. It is against the law for anyone in the UK to dock tails except for a veterinary surgeon, and a vet is only allowed to do this if the pups are going to be used as working dogs. However, there is widespread flouting of the current legislation as many young pet dogs are still sporting docked tails.



You can't always detect the level of pain an animal is in by looking for signs comparable to an adult human reaction in a similar situation. There have been studies done in birds which show that those sitting quietly and apparently happily in stressful situations can have higher heart rates than those flapping about noisily. The inference is that the birds sitting still may be suffering more stress than those that react in an obvious way. The point of this is that we have no way of measuring pain in pups undergoing tail docking, so shouldn't we err on the side of caution?

Answer 13

I have never objected to tail docking--I have always assumed that it was done for a reason. Those reasons you just mentioned are excellent.



Austalian Shepherds have beautiful tails, and there is argument to why they dock their tails. To my understanding, Aussies were bred in the western US, where their tails were not only threatened by livestock, but also by becoming caught in the tall grasses and various things that grow in the Western US. Having been to much of the Western US, I can see where this may be true.



Honestly, the pain of docking is so little and it prevents so much. Dewclaw removal could also be considered "painful" but very few people object to that, because they can see with their *eyes* where it may be beneficial. Some breeds, especially today, it is hard to see where it benefits the dog for docking to occur.

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Add: EssJay: BCs were developed in Europe, and I'm sure there were many reasons the breed was never docked. Different conditions, different beliefs, etc. most likely.



As for "nippy sheep" my neighbor has *both* sheep & goats, and I can say they are *very* nippy creatures!

Answer 14

specific, have the surgical operation accomplished. the comparable issues surpassed off to a minimum of considered one of our dogs. they simply bumped off an particularly small element of the tail, and it healed precise. you ought to no longer even tell it grew to become into shorter than a classic tail for his breed (dachshund). along with his soreness meds and antibiotics, he grew to become into lower back to his previous self very immediately.

Answer 15

I seriously cannot believe the amount of humanizing the is going in here!!!

I have never heard such crap in my entire life as the "pain" and the dog being away "from its mommy"....where do people get their ideas from?

Docking is done for a reason and that reason was explained several times in here by some of the more enlightened members in here.

A few selected people in here who "think" they know it all are once again wrong and proved that they are educated beyond their intelligence level.

Answer 16

Well first off, a vet performs the tail docking not the breeder. Secondly, the tails must be docked according to certain breeds through AKC. If you get a dog for a pet there is really no reason to have their tails or ears docked. If you are getting a dog you plan to show then you have to do as AKC says to do.



And for the people out there who think tail docking is cruel and inhuman... what do you think male circumcision is? :)

Answer 17

I still disagree with docking tails. The exceptions being if the dog line is actually used for working (hearding cattle... which seriously... how often is that used in the USA anymore...) or if the breed has very thin tails (Dobermans). One Spaniel hurts its tail, and you suddenly think all Spaniels should have their tail docked.



I saw a very pretty Spaniel-beagle mix with long tail. If the Spaniel tail is left long, the fur can be very pretty.



Doubt the Spaniel tail fits in the "too thin" category.



Some dogs are going to injure their tail. It happens. Doesn't mean all dogs need docked tails.



By the way, have you ever seen a black lab? Their tail could be a deadly weapon, hehe. Hurts when it hits you. Doesn't mean the tail should be docked.



Know I'm jumping around here... but last 2 issues:

I have no idea why more of the dog's tail was not removed after it needed the tail amputated. Not sure how it could be life-threatening.



As for docking without pain, doesn't happen. Have you seen a docking being done? I saw it at a vet. A rubber band was placed around the tail to stop blood flow. Scalpel then slices through the tail after the rubber band. Meanwhile the puppy, who isn't near mommy, is screaming in fear and pain. Not sure how people can listen to that and sleep at night.



Viewing all the thumbs down others are given, I can see we have quite a few people who love tail-docking. So sad. Shows how much we Americans really care... or don't care... about our animals.

Answer 18

Tail docking for ANY dog is a good idea if the breed requires it.



Just as an example, Boxers are prone to split-tails when they are left natural. The constant wag and hit against a surface causes hairline fractures within the tailbone, and with the right wag the bone [literally] splits in half. It can't be splinted, so the broken part of the tail has to be removed. A friend of mine that works Boxer Breed Rescue has had over 200 dogs that went into surgery for split tails in the 50 years that she's been doing rescue.



Australian Shepherds should ALWAYS be docked because of the dangers that those tails can get them into. Aussies in particular have tendencies to have their tails bitten or even ripped off by members of the herd- the same applies to Border Collies.



My Aussie x Border x Lab mix was left with a natural tail and his herding drive has gotten him into so much trouble. He's had his tail caught in barbed fencing, bitten by sheep and horses, entangled in reeds, smacked against tables, walls and doors. He's a danger to himself- but we've been lucky to not have to take it off.



Yorkies are docked for sanitary reasoning's- they have very long hair that can and *will* be covered in feces and become entangled- eventually leading to an infection.



Dogs that go underground or in the brush [usually terriers or hunting dogs] are docked to prevent having their tails caught and ripped on things- which is very easy to do.



To put into perspective- American Pit Bull Terrier breeders have begun the practice of tail docking to prevent their animals from being used in fights. Tails are usually used as handles in these rings, and without the tail the dog can't effectively be pulled off our out of a fight. It won't become a breed standard, but its a damn good practice.



As for the service dogs amputated tail- the veins in a dogs tail can be docked at three days of age, but once it grows out removing too much of the vital veins can be dangerous for the animal.



Yes-- docking should ONLY be done by an experienced breeder or veterinarian with proper tools, but it should be done for EVERY breed that requires it.

Answer 19

I think it is a difficult one really. i don't know if there is any way of docking tails "humanely" as such. As far as I always knew, the procedure is painful and inhibits their natural body language (communication with others etc) and, on the whole, has been done for aesthetic reasons rather than any necessity.



What do you mean about spaniel's tails being "a liability"? Just out of interest, as i have not heard this before. I know they are very waggy, and this can be irritating for owners (i have an alsation who regularly "wags" everything off the coffee table!) but i don't see the benefit to them?



Even if it were allowed "if the breeder could do so without inflicting pain", there could be no way of knowing whether or not suffering was caused to the animal, and I am yet to see any actual benefit to the animal for having it done.



xx

Answer 20

It is impossible to use SENSE & LOGIC & EXPERIENCE on the AR-brainwashed boobs-in-the-street!



My breed is docked-*I* know what docking & dews ACTUALLY entails,so *I* don't *****IMAGINE***** BULLSHI*!!!

EVERYBODY else does.

"Hearsay,Y'r Honor & INADMISSIBLE!!!!"

You don't know about docking or cropping....you ADMIT it.....yet you feel free to ANTHROPOMORPHIZE,don't you? Like everybody else who's never even seen either procedure.



This topic is such a repetitive bore.





*&*.for 84th time..........TERRIERS are docked to PROVIDE A STURDY HANDLE=>>>>NOT<<<< because of injury IN-GROUND-which DOESN'T HAPPEN!!!!

*&* SHEEP DON'T FING BITE!!!!

Where do you get your acid?

Answer 21

there really is no way to dock tails without inflicting pain. just because they are amputated early doesnt mean the pup doesnt feel it. i am completely against tail docking unless it is for a medical reason. i cant possibly see how a dog's tail can be a liability. they are meant to have tails, they were born that way. if for some reason the dog has a medical issue which requires tail docking, that is a different story, as the benefit outweighs the risk. otherwise, let the poor animals stay as they were meant to be instead of putting them through pain for cosmetic purposes.

Answer 22

I think that as long as a vet does it within 2 day old that there is nothing wrong with as long as its a breed that it is meant to be done to. theres nothing wrong with ear cropping