DS: If you can't handle your dog without a training tool, is it a mismatch?

Question

DS: If you can't handle your dog without a training tool, is it a mismatch?

Answer 1

Okay. I will play. I should not own a power breed because I need to TRAIN the dog with a tool? What the heck is a collar and leash?!!! Tools?!! Gentle (my butt) Leader?!! TOOL??



So, my husband could not control our APBT in the BEGINNING of her training because.......wait......it's coming........she is physically stronger! Wow. Beat that up and feed it to the masses. So is a German Shepherd. So is a Rottie. And on and on and on......



Mismatch? Not hardly. I own a power breed because I CAN handle the dog with the proper equipment.



I swear. It is like telling a person they should not work in construction if they need to use a jackhammer.

Answer 2

Well, dogs are not born trained and well behaved, unless you're watching Lady and the Tramp or 101 Dalmatians.



So you have to use SOME training method to teach them what is expected of them. Who is to say that clicker training is somehow better than using a prong collar to train your dog>????? Thus its called a TRAINING collar...not a wear it around the house 24 hours a day / 364 days a year/ 15 years COLLAR.



Now if you fail to train your dog, regardless of its size...then dont get dogs period. IF you're unsure of your training methods or your ability to handle a specific breed, then dont get that breed...I dont think it has anything to do with size...ASIDE FROM THIS VERY SIMPLE FACT



A small UNTRAINED dog is a lot easier to kick away then a large 150lb UNTRAINED dog. So, if your intention is NOT to train the dog...get a small one...lol

Answer 3

The dog/master mismatch is the owner who can't, or refuses to control their dog.

Any training aid is useful in the right hands. You use what ya gotta use to control your dog.



I train using n-f-l, marker, and positive but firm methods. I use a Canny Collar for a dog that is too strong for me,(bad back) until the dog knows exactly what I want. I use what works for the individual dog.



I wish people would quit bashing others and their methods.



The method chosen must work for handler and dog..As long as it works, and the dog is under control, what does it matter?

Why on Earth would anyone care if I use marker training and a Canny, or why would anyone care if someone else uses a prong or (properly) uses a stim?



As long as my dogs are canine good citizens, easy to live with, and don't bother a soul, why would anyone feel like bashing my methods? I've been successful with hundreds of dogs, of all breeds and temperaments. No one is going to change my mind about how I go about it.



Greek trains totally differently than I do, and his dogs are trained for a very different purpose.

Why would I bash what he does, or Dutch, Animal Artwork, Uhave 2 Be.. or Leerburg, or anyone else who has found success in training/handling their dogs?



I think we need to quit bashing each other and our methods or training aids..



The only shame is the untrained and out-of-control dog, that terrorizes his home, and neighborhood, or the one languishing on a chain because he is untrained.

Answer 4

IMO, if you had a large, powerful breed dog that NEEDED a training tool, and you were unwilling to use one, THAT would be a mismatch.



Whats "entitled" have to do with anything? I have one large dog that does not respond to anything less than a prong or e collar. Am I supposed to give him up to someone else because of that?

Does anyone else wants a big black, hard to manage, sometimes dog-aggressive dog?

I dont think so.



Should I have him put down simply because he wont respond to a flat collar?

Or should I use whatever is necessary to keep him under control?



The answer seems obvious to me.

Answer 5

I mean this is pretty much why I don't have a Rottie already. You think I can handle a Rottie now? LOL



I'm looking at Rotts for a retirement dog. That's 30 years away. I've got 30 years to learn more about training and dogs and if by then I don't feel I can handle a Rottie then I just plain won't get one. (Didn't I tell you I over think things?) I got Lab because I figured he's a pretty good starter dog and am using him as dog tutor while I study the species. Now I think it's debatable whether that was the right thing to do or not, but what's done is done. There's a spot or two in a nature preserve area where the Lab gets riled up and I have a little trouble with him. Hence the prong. It's a bit far away and I don't get to get out there much except on weekends.



I really like Schutzhund now that I've looked into it more. I didn't NOT like it before, I just had little knowledge of it. Rotts do Schutzhund. So that looks like a good thing for me to do when I retire.

So I'll find a good Schutzhund place, and go with the flow there. If they say prong, I'll go with prong. If they say shock, I'll go with shock. I guess.



Hope y'all are still around in 30 years. (I think I said 20 years in my other Rottie question didn't I?)

Answer 6

Aphro? Long story short...that's ridiculous.



Uhave2B...Greek? Bellon personifies the incorrect way to use the e-collar. His dog yelps in anticipation of stim when commanded because he uses negative punishment...well trained dog...he'll do what you say. But his stress level doing basic OB is high enough he's yelping like a beaten Chihuahua. That's pitiful and freakin' PATHETIC...



If that looks good to anybody but a brand new novice they're somebody who's stuck in 1982. I'm disgusted.



-edit- Mr. Ellis is not the be all end all. But he's definitely a lot better of a trainer than Mr. Bellon. He sampled Mr. Bellon's techniques and abandoned them...that alone speaks to his intelligence. Take what's useful, reject what is not, but learn from many.



That's not excitement...that's stress...is plain and easy to see without my glasses on.



-edit- NVBK simply isn't that hard. If you can train FR you can train Mondio and you can train NVBK as long as you have a good dog. NVBK uses environmental stressors, FR uses stress from the decoy blah blah whatever. Any competent trainer in any discipline can train a dog in any other discipline with only slight instruction in technique so don't BS me. That said Bart Bellon uses negative punishment, Mike Ellis simply does NOT...ever. Did he used to? Probably, everybody did...past tense, because this training has been surpassed by more effective methods that involve less stress and dogs who don't yelp in anticipation of stim which btw if you thought that was excitement in a positive way you must have a really hard time doing helper work and judging what drives a dog is working out of...but then again we never can agree on what drives Fila work out of so no surprise there's a difference of opinion there lol.



Anyway, the point is I can train my dog to do everything his dog just did 100% reliably without ever using the continuous stim button, thus resulting in a dog who doesn't wet himself when I give commands thinking he must escape the stim before Bart has a chance to hit the button on his e-collar remote! In fact Bart has to WAIT until the dog is mature enough to take correction before he can train his dog in positions like that...unless he's become more whacked out recently and is usin e-collars on 8 week old puppies which I doubt. I on the otherhand can have my pup doing basic positions in 12 weeks including heeling. By 20 weeks it'll be refined. By 6 months which is the minimum recommended time in the corrections based training, I could have a pup doing positions in a way that is correct enough to do obedience competition. I proved that. Posted the video right here to Y!A...did all of that 2 months after my 2nd open heart surgery without 1 correction using food and toys and yes that was the pup I experimented the clicker on! So if I'm not talking out of my @$$. I'm talking FACT as to what I can do before Bart can even strap an e-collar on his dogs age wise.



That said...by the time his dogs figure out what he wants I can begin corrections and have mine proofed around distraction.



IMPORTANT *****As a final note: Bart having to slap his dog on the nose multiple times during the middle of the video go against him being the God of training. In fact Helmut Raiser had points deducted in the Bundesseiger for simply pinching his dog's ear. I wonder if belting the dog in the nose is allowed at the NVBK championships!!!!!!!*******



-edit- Last edit but I'll say this NVBK isn't what you try to make it. The Obedience is not much different than French Ring. Other than that what's the difficulty? Environmental stress? The bitework comes from a stagnant helper who barely moves. What takes so long exactly? What makes it more difficult than Mondio which uses stress from decoy and environment when the NVBK decoy simply stands around? Because the themed trials that are different? We do that in FR and Mondio as well! Or how about Schutzhund where the routine is...well routine, but the dog has a controlled track and the dogs must work with no obvious fear of the handler (the dog in the video would fail at that). What makes NVBK so difficult that you think it's so much harder than other sports? The level of obedience is the same as other ringsports and less as strict as Schutzhund in which nearly every step is choreographed. Saying one sport is better or harder is ridiculous. And frankly since in the NVBK dogs who pee themselves and yelp into position is 100% okay so it should be easy to train for! Who can't beat a dog into obeying? No clauses that say a dog can't look forced in work. No tracking either! Most difficult? Hmmm...but I must admit I've never trained NVBK...since it's only recognized in Belgium...and I've never lived there thus I've never trained that discipline. Didn't know you lived there either. But I have trained with Albert and Mandy Claays!



If the ends justify the means then Bart Bellon is awesome. 2 time nats winner!



If you've got common sense and like, much less love animals...the ends don't justify the means and ridiculous methods that involve stimming a dog BEFORE he has the option to comply is wrong. Plain and freakin' simple. Make it as complicated as you like. The same results can be had whilst subjecting the dog to much less stress. Now I see why half of yahoo thinks every dog who barks and bicycles, other dogs, or who isn't stable enough to keep calm in a meteor shower should be put to sleep. With those methods and beliefs "average" dogs aren't worth keeping around...they waste space and air and can't take that sort of training right?



Sheesh still would love to see some of the experience at work. I've seen Dutch's work he just doesn't know it! The company he works with is very well known! So far that's all I've seen though. Would love to see how to do things "right" so I can add to my experience which is lacking!



And to wrap it up, your dog yelping and wetting himself while doing what you command isn't good training in my opinion and never will be no matter how long I live and how much "experience" I gain...having a dog that stressed just to be on the field with you makes you pathetic...too many ego maniacs want to put the value of their testes on how through bravado they can tame mighty protection dogs.



-edit- Dutch I have seen your work! Way back when, and yes! You were at the loop end of a show dog...late 90's I'm thinking! Not saying you're going to Crufts, perhaps that's what somebody wanted (specifically a show line dog) or what they sent, but that dog was definitely black and red! The work was good though! Greek still seeing nothing. Still not thinking the ends justify the means. And perhaps one day I'll grit my teeth, politic and take a dog to the Nats...doesn't prove crap really but it'll look nice to say when my "experience" is called to question, lol! Also to add to the confusion? Bart also uses clickers in addition to negative punishment. No, not markers, CLICKERS...now since the art of clicker training is beyond comprehension at times, perhaps a Bart Bellon seminar is in order! We should all go! It might be interesting!



And to add cuteness to the whole thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJP9QCXhL1k

Answer 7

The actual question in context was:



counter question: why is a shock collar neccessary for a competent, diligent trainer in obedience training a household pet?



and how can anyone criticize things like gentle leader haltis and BarkOff! ... and yet turn around and fiercely defend shock collars?



and why should people feel that they are entitled to have large powerful dogs if they can't handle them without shock collars? we FAIL people who have large powerful dogs in apartments, or send their 9 year old girl out to walk them... If you can't handle your dog without a shock collar ... then isn't that a mismatch too?





SO - the Q was talking only about shock collars, and only for people obedience training their own pets.



I'm pretty sure Bart Bellon is capable of obedience training a household pet w/o needing a shock collar.



And whatever works best in training police/military dogs, where lives may depend on them following their specialized training to the iota, is fine w/me.

Answer 8

99% of the population can't handle a cockroach or a stuffed animal properly.



Tools are used by humans....have zero use w/out a brain in charge. Dividing tool use into breeds is akin to telling someone they can't drive a car w/more than 4 cylinders unless they're over 200lbs.

Answer 9

I don't say so. I don't agree with a 9year old walking a dog by herself, because you can't know if while she's out if another aggressive dog will attack. As for us, we have the collars to keep our boys in the yard. They both love to chase cows and around here that causes farmers to kill them. These collars help save them from being shot when we arn't home to keep them in the yard. I won't put them in a kennel or on a chain as I've had bad expieriences with both. And shock collars don't hurt the dogs at all. Both of mine are only on as high as I can stand to hold in my hand when I walk through the barrier. And they haven't made either dog aggressive in anyway. I do however think that you should have to take a test of some sort to get one, so those collars arn't being sold to people who would use it to abuse the animal.

Answer 10

Oh, FFS...a training collar is an INSTRUMENT, nothing more, nothing less, period. Why should I not use an E collar, because it may hurt little fluffy when fluffy deserves it?

Why cant I not use a prong collar, because the AR nuts, the bleeding hearts and tree huggers cannot bring themselves to bear it...screw them.

This sht is getting old in here too..Too many people that cannot understand what a dog is or how one functions come out and talk out of their anal cavity and its starting to stink. Hope I helped.



ADD: UHave2Be...that is Bart Bellon, the GOD of Ecollar training and that Malinois there is his Demo dog...nothing else needs to be said.



ADD: Curtis, I did tell you this once before, that dog is a Malinois that is highly excitable and energetic, what you hear is not pain and stress yelps, its anticipation and excitement.

Having said that and having had the utmost pleasure of training with Bart Bellon, I will take his training with an E collar over you being disgusted.

I know I am not stuck in 1982, I know he is not, I know Mr Ellis who has taken lessons from Bart is most likely not, it seems that you are the only one disgusted here Curtis...perhaps its time for a little change. Escape training does work, not that I think that what is shown in the vid, but, for argument sake, lets say it is...who gives a fvck, the dog is doing what he needs to do, he does it happily, if you see him in person, you will agree, he gets the job done and that is all that matters.

This happy go lucky sht maybe fit for a Sch ring, its not for everyone though and Bart does teach sold out seminars all over Europe every week on the use of E collars which he is also a distributor of. Not that many people can argue with his accomplisments, so....



ADD: C'mon Curtis, no need to act butt hurt..Mr Ellis is not the be all, correct, as far as his abandoning Mr Bellon's training methods, I think not, he is still training with him, a simple phone call will verify that for you, because he is not myopic and KNOWS talent when he sees it.

Bart Bellon has accomplished more then most people have in the HARDEST dog discipline on the planet, the NVBK.

Bashing him and his methods proves that you do not have a clear understanding of some things, thats ok, you are young, as you mature, your mind will change.

As far as your glasses, it may be time to get a new prescription...trust me!!



ADD: BS you Curtis..no, I could never do that...you should know better about BSing...

As far as NVBK, IT IS the HARDEST training discipline on the planet, like it or not, makes no difference. Sure, any competent trainer can or should be able to train a dog in it, thats why we have all these NVBK dogs running around..maybe its the fact that is takes so long to do it, maybe its the fact that BECAUSE of how hard it is, not that many competent trainers are willing to do it, who knows, who cares really?

As far as Bart and his training methods, they have been proven in the ring, there is nothing for anyone to argue about that. He is THE man when it comes to E collars and I am sure the NVBK board did not see his methods as sht when they allowed him and Helmut to create the BIGGEST NVBK trial in its history, "dances with Malinois"....sure....



Mr Ellis is a very competent trainer and I have no idea what your persistance is based on about his methods, like I said, a simple call will answer your question about who he is training with, make that call...

Once again, youth VS experience..Bart has latter since we are talking about them and he is, like I mentioned earlier, teaching seminars to hundereds of people every weekend on how to use E collars...maybe all these people that pay him think he is wrong too...who knows..

Maybe his success in training all these dogs in based on luck, what do you think Curtis, is it?

Maybe he does it all wrong and he needs to come see you so he can learn the proper and only way of training, are you you available?

Anyway Curtis, like I alluded to earlier, I get payed for my results, not my methods and so do many other people that have been in the dog game for several decades...

Oh, I only use my experience in training as a weapon when provoked, not for fun, as someone else suggested...

Have a great weekend...give me a call sometime, we can discuss this personally if you want!!



ADD: You know Curtis, I am kind of tired and as another old man said in here, THIS is for fun, but, if you want to keep hinting about people and their experience...well, I suggest you take the advice of another old man in here, you can learn A LOT from him as well....Take benevolence when its offered Curtis and hints...trust me on this one too...this is not the place to make you look good for the harem on other's expense. Have a great night!!

Answer 11

Regarding the video Uhavetobe posted, I watched it without sound. So no idea what was being said or how the dog sounded.



Reading the behavior was hard, dark dog and not a good quality clip. Imo the dog didn't seem very stressed out. He did seem a bit anxious. I noticed when he moved into a new position he would lick his lips. Every time. So to me he seemed to be worrying about what was going to happen. That does show stress.



I know clicker trainers that can produce this with their dogs. I've seen it. But the dogs weren't showing any signs of being anxious or stressed out. Those dogs truly enjoyed what they were doing.



I'm not bashing on that trainer though, excellent dog, impressive. I just think another method would have served the same purpose without making the dog anxious.



Anyway, to answer the Question, I don't agree. If the tools are being used incorrectly than yes. But that's a sign of an idiot dog handler not a reflection on the method/tools used.

Answer 12

Find what motivates your dog. Some dogs do anything for food. Some dogs do anything for Toys. Some do anything for a good petting. Some do anything for only one type of food, like cheese, or hotdog. Some only have interest in training for 5 minutes at a time, and others can go for an hour. Figure out what your dog is willing to work for, and then work with her in sessions that are no longer than she can tolerate. How to train your dog properly https://tr.im/vz4YP



Sign up for a dog obedience training class. It will not train your dog. It will give you training on how you can train your dog. Most people understand the idea of training, but there is a right and a wrong way to do it, and there is good and bad technique. Timing and consistency is very important, and it helps to have feedback of someone watching you who can help you improve your technique to get more efficient results with your dog.



However, she may be somewhat anxious around other dogs, sort of like the shy kid on the playground. She will benefit from continuing what you are doing as far as asking her to sit before entering, but there are more things along those lines that will help her to calmly go in and out of the dog park. She may also benefit from going in short bursts, or only when fewer dogs are present, or avoiding times when other dogs that make her nervous are present. Maybe she just plays loud - my brother's dog is this way - or maybe she is a dogpark bully - sorry it is possible. But more likely she is just a little anxious around new dogs and she wants to play but just doesn't quite know how to do that and still feel comfortable. Don't be surprised if your dog does not actually like the dog park, and maybe she would get more enjoyment and less stress out of simply going for a good walk somewhere else.



A wagging tail does not mean that your dog is happy or even comfortable with the situation. It means your dog is emotionally aroused. This could be a happy arousal, or it could be a nervous arousal, or it could be an aggressive arousal. Go youtube it, there are plenty of videos of 'vicious' dogs who are throwing a very aggressive fit of barking and snarling while their tail is wagging vigorously. Even police dogs who are not let off the leash to chase down a suspect can be lunging and barking and snarling, and their tails are still going.

Answer 13

Hi, I understand that you are looking for some advice or resources to help fully train your dog or fix behavior problems. If a professional dog trainer is not an option at this time, or if you want to trt training your dog on your own (a great way to bond), I'd suggest you https://bitly.im/aMDjw



A friend recommened it to me a few years ago, and I was amazed how quickly it worked, which is why I recommend it to others. The dog training academy also has as an excellent home training course.

Answer 14

Failure to train your dog, even with training tools, is probably because of NOT using those training tools correctly. There are specific reasons to use specific training tools. There is a correct way to use the tool. And there is a correct follow-up (For example, those who use tools to correct "bad" behavior, but do not reward the dog for "good" behavior)



So... maybe it's not a breed/owner mismatch. Just a lack of knowledge.



As for having a large, powerful dog... Well, if you don't have the confidence to train him and be the pack leader WITHOUT the overuse of a shock collar, then you should probably get a smaller breed.

Answer 15

No mismatch at all. In todays world man has stupidly slapped rules and regulations so that we can no longer handle (most of us) our dogs.



In an ideal world, dogs aren't locked up, confined in apartments, units, backyards, with limited views, and stimuli, what do you expect the dogs are going to do when they get out.



I'd like to shock collar all the people that use them, and we'll all see exactly WHAT you learn from that method.

Answer 16

If it's for the short term, I can understand it. Dogs have to be trained after all, and not all dogs can be trained under the same methods.



If it's long term however, then I don't think it's a good match. It would be kind of like owning a car where you have to do something special to make the breaks work. All it takes is one little mishap for a huge disaster to happen.



Unlike a car though, a dog is on all of the time. So there's a bigger chance for something bad to happen.



Though I have to say, it's not just with the "Large, powerful breeds." It's with any breed, any size in my opinion.

Answer 17

I think some ppl get bigger breeds for protection or for intimidation, unfortunately some owners themselves are fearful and thus can't properly train or handle them. I do not think any one should own a large breed dog if they can not train and handle them, but obviously ppl do. As far as allowing kids to walk large dogs I personally allow my 4 year old daughter to walk my 5 month old apbt, but I have two leashes on him one that she hold and one that I hold and I also hold her hand that has the leash. Obviously it is unwise to let a child walk them alone bc they can pull their arm out of the socket if they pull them or they can pull them into a busy street etc. I think it is wrong to shock a dog, if training doesn't work then seek a some one who works specifically in the area that u need help and if u can't afford it find some one that can. Would you want to be shocked bc u don't learn the same as every one else? Just my opinion :)

Answer 18

I would say that the answer is situational. I rescued a very large abused pitbull/ Dogo Argentino who is completely deaf. He was extremely difficult to train because of how fearful he is (even now he is extremely scared of everyone except me). Thankfully my dog is extremely friendly with other dogs though, because I have socialized him! I started using a remote collar with a shock setting at the very lowest level 1. Before I ever put it on my dog, I test it on myself to make sure that it is working properly and is not too strong. It feels like a little tingle. I simply use it to get his attention when he is 100+ yards away in the countryside or at the dog park. Otherwise, we use sign language. Whenever he is feeling extremely jumpy around a group of people or a new house guest, if I give a little buzz he immediately calms down and lays with his head on my hand. I know that he feels more secure knowing that he can communicate with me, and I do not have any regrets using this device.

Answer 19

This person is totally correct. This doesn't appear to be talking about training. To me, it's about daily control of your dog. If you can't control your dog without *constantly* jerking, pronging, zapping, kicking, hitting, yelling, screaming, how is this considered a trained dog? I don't know about mismatch, but it certainly means that the owner was incapabable of instilling reliable behaviour and actions.



Post-training, the wake ups and refreshers are always needed. But I don't trust a dog, or owner, that constantly has to use a prong collar or electrocution collar just to get the dog to walk on a leash.



As far as talking out of one's anal cavity, when people come on here talking about how you have to essentially beat a dog, any dog, to get him to listen, this is the same as a talking fart to me. Either the dog isn't made to be doing what you are asking it or your technique is crap. Sorry, but yelling the loudest and being the most vile and violent doesn't make you right. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if a single one of these testosterone guys came anywhere NEAR my dog with a electrocution collar or a choke chain, they would get kicked in the nuts and a Glock drawn on them faster than they can say "Sarah Palin" or "Narcissistic Personality Disorder."



I had a long conversation about controlling your dog with both an Sch/herding Malinois breeder AND a GSD enthusiast who also works with rescue. The GSD rescue guy said that of all the dogs he's had through there, he only used a shock collar ONCE. And it was to wake the dog up. And all it took was once. The Mal breeder's dogs are taught early to respond to her without the use of cattle prods. A kick in the butt if one is focused on something and won't break, but not a single one of her dogs, nor of the pups she produces, live life in shock collars and choke chains. She didn't want to make the dogs hard and non-responsive in serious situations. Of course, the dogs are also placed in homes where they are family members first, not put out in kennels with 50 other dogs.

Answer 20

Dogs need training it, the dog is in humanity, so just like a little training under

Answer 21

"Education" with lack of experience is very apparent in YA. It's also where the worst advice comes from.



I'd add more, but the bar just opened and I need a dri....drin.....dinner.



ADD: "THIS ADDITION IS A RANT" Please YA GODS DO NOT DELETE THIS ACCOUNT...or I'll have to spend 2 minutes creating another.



Curtis, I doubt you've seen "my work" as you put it. I understand I deal with "show dogs only"....obviously you're confused. But yes, we ARE well known. You've also said several times that dogs above $10K are a ripoff....we obviously have a different idea of what a good dog is. Yes, there are plenty of dogs in Europe that can be "had" for $2500-$4000...just nothing I would purchase or try to pass on to a client. If you play in the "minors"...don't "she-it talk" the "majors".



YA is a place for entertainment for me....it gets my mind off the real dog world. Please stick to what you "know".....not what you think.

Answer 22

99% of the population can't handle a cockroach or a stuffed animal properly.

Answer 23

A training tool is to train. Not manage.

Answer 24

I agree you should be able to, not handle, but train your pet without a shock collar. The smallest lady could handle the largest dog if she were to train him right and no collar would be needed.

Answer 25

Honestly I think the below video speaks for itself



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZycKvvq8-IQ



Or is this e collar trainer mismatched with his dogs and perhaps find another sport or at the very least another breed............