If the written standard is decent, then who is really to blame?

Question

If the written standard is decent, then who is really to blame?

Answer 1

I blame the breeders.



Here's an example of how breeders determine which judges are allowed to continue judging:



Bisquit is an allowed color in Samoyeds. An AKC provisional judge was at the Samoyed Nat'ls in Oct attending the Judge's Seminar and commented that he felt "Bisquit makes the dog look dirty and I simply prefer a white Samoyed". Guess who won't be getting many judging assignments?



another example:



A judge recently had an "off" day. She seemed crabby and unhappy. Multiple young dogs backed away from her and were excused. In an entry of 150 dogs of a variety of breeds there were **70** complaints regarding her attitude and that she was being heavy handed on the dogs. Guess who won't be getting many judging assignments and guess how many people won't be entering under that judge.



yet another example:



A judge was judging a large entry of what some call a "junk" breed due to the rather poor history of conformation within the breed. He has a reputation for being a "head" judge. He put up a popular handler with a decent, pretty dog for Winner's Dog and after a LOT of consideration for Winner's B*tch he stood out in the midst of the ring and said "These are some of the best XYZ b*tches I've ever seen." He sent them around the ring to observe movement one more time (some say a commentary the fact he was planning on rewarding structure) and he put up a very plain, some say homely, b*tch for Winner's B*tch. He will get entries again AND those showing pretty dogs with unsound structure were put on notice not to bring him pretty, crap-structured dogs.



Breeders have a choice what to bring in the ring and what to keep in their kennels. They have the choice to walk away from a show, to complain about poor judging to the AKC rep at the show or to complain to the show giving club, they can blackball judges. While a judge CAN withhold ribbons for lack of merit it is not done very often and the dogs must be so out of standard as to have the exact breed be unclear.



Breeders and exhibitors are the ones bringing garbage dogs into the ring.



Start flooding the rings with STRUCTURALLY sound GSD and I can guarantee you that there are judges that will put them up. But it takes a concentrated effort from a group of people who are determined to influence their breed (or to not let a breed be swayed by an idiot judge with a color preference).



If decent dogs aren't being shown, they can't win. Simple as that.



It take persistance and a group effort to sway the habits of any large group of people.



There is HOPE but ONLY if people are willing to work at it. Bellyaching doesn't get much done.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Yesterday I got a call from a breeder from Colorado. She'd seen Miss Monica in Nebraska at a show and saw The Lou yesterday in Minnesota. (I'm in Seattle) She's one of the top winning breeders in the country and wanted to have a conversation about structure in my dogs. She's looking to bring some new blood into her kennel and wants to know what I have planned for my girls. Next weekend I'll be video taping my "homely" girls so we can have a conversation on whether I have what she's looking for. I am, essentially, a nobody in Bernese... I simply have structurally sound Bernese with pedigrees steeped in longevity. Could I have given up showing my less than pretty dogs because I don't win every time I walk in the ring? Sure. Would it have helped the breed in the long run? ... we'll see.

Answer 2

Great, thought provoking question!



Personally, I feel it is first the judges and then the breeders to blame.



Judges that are not intimately familiar with a breed will put up the dog that catches their attention... the flashy one. The exhibitors & breeders see Dog X winning, so they all rush out and breed to Dog X or buy from his breeder. Pretty soon, all the dogs showing look like Dog X, and of course, that's what's winning. So they are bred flashier and flashier, until they no longer look like the breed standard.



Let me give you an example in the breed I hold close to my heart, the Gordon Setter. I will not say the dog's name because his owner is a good friend of mine, and he was her world.



Gordons are the heaviest of the Setter breeds. They are built for endurance, not speed. Back in the late 90's a dog came along that was like no Gordon anyone had seen before. He was tall, elegant and flashy. He didn't have the big, blocky head Gordons are known for. He was positively dripping in coat that hung almost to the ground. When his handler stacked him, he was not stacked square, but stretched like an Irish Setter. If you saw this dog in silhouette, you would have thought you were looking at an Irishman. His movement was spectacular, out at the end of the lead like a GSD. He began winning everything. Sporting group af Westminster...national specialties... the judges thought he was *perfect*



EVERYone wanted to breed to this dog. He produced himself over and over. People like me, who had the correct 'old fashioned Gordons' couldn't win for anything. My friend offered me a free breeding to this dog, and I'll be honest... I considered it. But in the end, I said no thank you... I wanted to remain true to my breed, not to the fad that was changing it into black and tan Irish Setters.



It has taken almost 10 years to repair the damage this dog... this one single dog... did to the breed I love so. Imagine that damage over the course of 20...30 years, like with the GSD.



The only way this will ever be repaired is by judged refusing to place dogs that cannot move. Does anyone else remember the GSD CH Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan? He went BiS at Westminster in the late 80's. To me, he was THE ideal GSD.



What do you all think about him?



http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/cdogs/CTHManhattan.html



ADDED:



Dutch: I respectfully disagree when you say $$$ controls the breed ring.



You will never meet anyone poorer than myself. I scrimp and save to enter a show. I can't afford to advertise my dog. And yet he has taken the points all but ONE time that he has stepped in the ring. As a 6 month old pup at his first show, he went BoB over major pointed adults.



Sometimes... just sometimes... quality wins.



It seems like you look DOWN on a dog for being pretty. If it can still do its job, why can't it be pretty too?

Answer 3

Some excellent answers here, but, I will go with the judges as well. They are the ones that determine who is the best dog in the ring. When that happens and that dog wins, everyone strives for that look as well because that dog won and he is now worth a ton of money in stud fees, not to mention his progeny! If a judge had the balls to dismiss and ENTIRE class of dogs from the ring, things may be different, but, as AA pointed out, that judge may not get too many assignments after that!



Look, the same thing happened in bodybuilding when I was heavily involved in that sport several years a go. The Judges rewarded a HUGE, dried out look and EVERYONE wanted to get that loo after that because that is what wins money and contracts and trophies.

Never mind the fact that in order to get to that point you must have total disregard for your health, spend well over 100K a year on various steroids, growth hormones, diuretics, pain killers, thyroid meds, speed to get up for the workouts and downers to sleep!!!



When a judge awards first place to ANYTHING, dog, human, car, horse, whatever, everyone else that cares is going to want to emulate that example, period!

The other problem is that many judges are not qualified to judge certain breeds, how are they allowed to be in the ring with that breed?

I cannot for a minute picture someone that is not Nationally licensed in the NVBK or the KNPV judging an event.

There is something seriously wrong with the AKC that hires these judges and then allows them to pick whatever the day calls for!

If breeders where getting their dogs rejected EVERY SINGLE time they stepped in the ring, they would think differently about their breeding program. Not my area of expertise, but, hope I helped!

Answer 4

The exhibitor who show dogs that don't meet the standard and the judges who reward those unsound dogs instead of withholding for lack of merit are to blame.

Answer 5

Have any of you ever really LOOKED at how these dogs are stacked? Some of the bad conformation you are seeing is really very bad stacking. The sable dog compared to the black and tan or red dog looks squarer just because the black and tan dog is way over stretched. Bring that dog into the same stance and you will see they really aren't built all that differently.

Answer 6

I don't know diddly squat about showing a dog or show breeders......but what I am seeing in the pictures with the dogs that are 'stacked' is they are NOT standing completely up. In otherwords, these dogs don't actually look like that? I mean, they are PUT in those positions, right?



If I am wrong, somebody feel free to tell me. Please.



EDIT: I am starting to see....from some good answers but it is still unclear. And don't be afraid to challenge my ignorance on this because I am kinda lost here....



EDIT: Thank you, Jesse. I am curious about what Loki has to say. Not that I am going to understand her......she is way above my little tiny brain!!!!

Answer 7

The breeders and judges are to blame because they are producing the dogs to look a certain way and the judges get to pick what dog is best in show, best of breed, best of opposite sex etc.



Its also who is reading the breed standard. Different people read it and think the dogs should look differently and then a certain style gets popular in the show ring and people start liking it so they breed for it and pick them to win.



Also if there is something not written as a fault in the breed standard, but is still off people will do it anyways because there is nothing against it. Some of these get popular and there you go!



Example of the color blue in APBTs.



EDIT: Haha those pics really are quite different. Even if it is just a bad stack they should not be stacking them like that. It should be how the picture is on the site.



Why don't you email the club and ask them? Might be interesting.

Answer 8

GSD's are not my breed, but I think this happens to some extent in every breed. It certainly does in English Setters!



There are a few problems:



Breeders who do not breed to standard and then show dogs that are outside the standard.



Judges--oh the judges. Judges are NOT specifically qualified for a particular breed. They are often just supposed to be able to competently judge an entire Group, even if they really only know one breed within it. So you see the problem--they honestly don't know the majority of breeds they are judging! No wonder they put up dogs who are grossly in violation of the standard. They also have personal preferences; with ES, some like almost white dogs, or prefer tris, or favor an eye patch, etc. This must happen in any breed that has a variety of acceptable coat colors or patterns. You're almost worse off if the judge's breed is your breed, as they favor whatever has been difficult for them to achieve in their own line. If they can't get a good chest in their own breed, for example, that dog could be over standard, have the wrong bite, no stop and a horrible tailset, but if it has a great chest, she'll place it!



And how often do you really see a judge do what it should? Get their hands all over the dog, check the teeth and bite, check for two testicles (can't tell you how many long-coated monorchid or cryptorchid dogs are placed), bring out a wicket to make sure the height is within standard, really study proper movement for that breed from several angles, etc.



Breeders do and should study judges. And they only compete in shows with judges who put up their 'type' dog. This can work FOR the breed, or AGAINST it, depending on the judges and breeders.



Corporate Sponsorships are another HUGE problem. If a food brand or other pet supply vendor latches onto a breeder, their dogs and that type, whether or not it is within breed standard, gets put up REGULARLY. They actually define the breed for the next 10 years, for better or worse. The breeder has a reputation, the judges don't know the breed, and they put up the names they know.



Incompetent judges will also put up HANDLERS! Handlers they like, dog could look and move like ANYTHING!



There are lots of problems, not just the breed standard.



ETA: Launi, you aren't wrong, no. Some of those stacks look crazy to me, but again, I am not a GSD or Herding Group person (Sporting Group here). I can tell you that those pictures were taken AFTER the big win in all likelihood, when the handler is tired, the dog is wound up and the stack is not as important as it is in the ring. The stack is not as important to the handler at that point--they want to get the picture snapped and get on to last minute grooming and prep for their NEXT ring date at that show. They usually have several if they are winning BOB, etc.



Some dogs are ALWAYS stacked by the handler putting them into position, yes, and others are taught to 'free stack", meaning the handler lures them from the head and the dog stops in a good position. It's a style in that case. Some dogs free stack well, and some don't. And some get so used to the show routine that they almost stack themselves, even if you planned to manually stack them. Usually the dogs with plenty of attitude and exuberance for showing do this, as they learn to love the ring and want to please. We had a Setter who was wound up from the second you bathed him and he would free stack pretty well! He knew he was going to be shown as soon as you grabbed a shampoo bottle and he was over the moon about it!



The stack in the ring is supposed to show off the best angles of the dog, and you can do a lot with minor adjustments to foot placement. But a lot of professional handlers seem to have abandoned their brains for the glory pictures, even though they are fantastic at a stack for that particular dog in the ring, where it counts! In their minds, they already did the job by getting the win!



ETA: An interesting aside, specific to ES: You rarely see a Liver Tricolor ES or a Lemon ES. Both are totally acceptable breed colorations within the standard. But these dogs have yellow eyes. For years, judges would not put up a dog with yellow eyes, so breeders stopped showing those colors and in fact bred them out where they could. Eventually, the breed community figured out that Liver Tris and Lemon Beltons had yellow eyes (genes are linked) and the world moved on. But it's a good example of how much judging influences what you will see in a breed.



ETA: Byb's Care for Money not dogs, thank you for underscoring my points! You are right!



And Attitude is something that does not come across in pictures. You are right that a dog's attitude has much to do with his ability to win, especially if the judge is not intimately familiar with the breed. These dogs have the Charisma that could never translate in a still pic, and lack of it keeps many otherwise perfect dogs from being shown and instead sold as pets. We had a PERFECT b*tch who never could be shown again after a tent blew over on top of her and the exhibitor at an outdoor show. She didn't have the right confidence. She never had that flash in the ring again! Wonderful dog, but no longer a 'show' dog, despite perfect conformation. She'd lost that "it". She could have been finished, but it would have cost a fortune and taken forever. (She's not much on outdoor wedding either-just hates tents now, although otherwise perfectly happy and engaging. Just no more tents for her!Meeting her or looking at her pics, you'd be astounded that she is not a CH. )



Attitude is hard to define, but you know it when you see it. It's an elegance of movement, a controlled exuberance, an attitude of confidence and excitement. It's often one of the bolder pups in the litter. Hard to describe, but as I said, you know it when you see it--they have that "Look at me! Now! And aren't you enthralled now that you did?! " quality...

Answer 9

My butt hurts from sitting on a plane all day...but I'll give this a short response.



Until a "Real" working title is demanded PRIOR to being able to show for conformation...there is no legitimate "Show" ring for the GSD. IF they don't meet the "Standard", it shouldn't matter what they look like...so why have a beauty contest? The standard is not "Structure" alone. As far as "who's" to blame? The judges. If they don't have the balls to dismiss an entire class because it's all "trash", then the breed is doomed. Luckily, what runs in circles at the local sieger show is NOT a German Shepherd..... It's a red & black carpet that refuses to get a name of its own. The almighty dollar is what controls the conformation ring. A top "Show" GSD from Germany can easily demand over $100K.....even though it doesn't fit the standard....WHO is going to dismiss it??? A judge would lose his license to judge quicker than he could say, "Roachback turd!"



As for Animal Artwork....again, running around a ring with something that doesn't resemble the breed is pointless. If I had nothing but time & money to waste....and enough narcotics in my system to not feel like a complete fool by running in circles while 10 friends squeeze squeaky toys....uh...nevermind....ain't gonna happen. There are judges in the world (not in the U.S.) that will critique a GSD without worrying about what is popular. I really do have ZERO interest in trying to fix the American GSD Show ring...or that of the German show ring. Americans with no clue are the target of many countries that breed crap for big money. As I've already said...what runs in the show ring is not a GSD....so I have no guilt about not wanting to go run around with them.



ADD: Oh wow....I got my TC back while I was in Arizona. I better fly out again!

Answer 10

Not going to bother with the pictures...after all, I'm the one who called Greekman from outside the GSD ring at a show just to have an excuse to rant loudly about the bullshit I was watching (the dogs AND the double-handling).



Pretty sure if I ever got a GSD judging assignment, it would be the first and last that I got...but it would be hellafun until the AKC rep showed up.



Which segues nicely into the first of a two-prong problem....



The Judges.



Many judges are not properly educated on a breed before they are licensed to judge them...this is particularly true of those breeds they receive as the "balance" of a group. While some do attend Parent Club Nationals and seminars on the breeds they want to judge, and some of them (not as many as I'd like) make an effort to see the breed work in the course of their study, all of this costs the judge their own time and money...so they may just settle for the opinions of one or two people "in the breed" they know from their own all-breed club.



Judges only make money when they start picking up multiple breeds and groups (thereby saving the kennel clubs money to hire/house/feed one judge for many breeds versus 3 judges)...so it is in a judge's best interest to get as many breeds as they can quickly.



It is also in the judges' best interests not to p*ss off a bunch of exhibitors...which would undoubtedly happen if they excused entire GSD classes as they rightly should. You bend a few exhibitors' noses out of joint at a single show, and you have very little chance of receiving any more assignments for that breed. This can also mean not getting the rest of the group, or group assignments, etc.



So judges find something to put up, and take the safe route.



But, in the end, who is responsible for educating would-be judges looking for licenses, and who is responsible for the preservation and well-being of their breed?



The Breeders.



I think Greekman made an excellent point in both his answer to Curtis' question, and his answer here: Competition is an ugly thing in *any* venue, when winning (being bigger, "better", more exaggerated, faster, stronger, etc.) becomes more important than integrity. And it's a vicious cycle...the breeders try to out-do each other with "bigger" sidegait or more coat or a wider head, etc. and it becomes the norm. Judges coming into the breed are taught that this is what is desirable by the same people who want to win with those exaggerated traits. You'd think the judges could read the Standard and do some critical thinking...but when all you see is people showing you their overblown "interpretation" of a trait and claiming that it's "what the Standard calls for", do you disagree and rock the boat?



In the end, it is up to the people competing to look at themselves in the mirror and decide whether or not what they are doing is for their breed or for themselves. And it is up to them to join their Parent Clubs and educate the judges that - while it may not be flashy! - *this* is correct movement (for example).



It is also up to them to bring judges correct dogs, rather than breeding for the win.



And now my personal opinion...I think Group/BIS competition is where breeds are ruined. Usually the #1 dog in the country gets there because he's flashy and has a big handler and money behind him...not necessarily because he's correct. The Group/BIS ring is where flashy exaggeration is rewarded...it is where a dog show ceases to be an exhibition of breeding stock and turns into a beauty pageant or a political circus. It is also where novice or gullible breeders see dogs win, think to themselves, "I want to win, so I want dogs like THAT one!" and begin the process of ruining their breed.



Not saying that every Top 10 dog in every breed is junk...but a heck of a lot of them don't deserve to be there.



I posit that if Group/BIS competition was removed, it would eliminate much of the politics, make the shows smaller, and give clubs time to implement Temperament Tests, trials, and other types of testing that might speak more to original function.

Answer 11

You already know my stand on this issue...I wasn't even going to reply until my name was brought up by Expertise...



How many GSDs have I handled in the show ring? I have SEVERAL dogs that are V rated/Vyborny that I didn't BUY that way. I also have more Kkl1 and 1st breeding class select dogs than dogs who aren't Koered. We go by actual to the centimeter measurements, NOT interpretations. So how many dogs have I shown to their "championships"? None, the AKC has a stupid way of showing dogs, it's a contest of money and free time. If your dog is koered he only needs to koered once, not "earn" points. He either fits standard or he does not. We do not make excuses for our dogs. They pass or they fail. We don't try another judge or whine about it to the FCI!!!!!!!!!



That said I've only seriously been breeding for 7 or 8 years and I've seen 3 of my dogs go to the Nats already whereas the most "famous" and best known American GSD breeder has been doing it over 30 years and has sent? 0! So I'm doing SOMETHING right! Pin me as the guy who doesn't know how to stack a dog, that's fine. Assume! That's great! But also you obviously ASSUME I've seen those mutts MOVE right? They naturally stand, and walk, with their hocks pointing at each other like this > < bowlegged and raked out. ALSO that first show mutt's color is platinum blonde and white it's pigment is so faded. He should be ejected on that alone!



Those MUTTS are just that, MUTTS! "German Shepherd breeding is working dog breeding or it is not German Shepherd breeding". Well! Pack it in to everybody who wants to play Captain Save-A-Mutt! There it is in black and white from good ole Max!!!!

Answer 12

I would think most of the blame should be laid on the judges, no?

I mean they are the ones that ultimately decide what is the "best" in the breed that is being shown - so they, intentionally or not, are setting a standard for the breed in my opinion.

Doesn't matter what the club says, they aren't the ones handing out the ribbons.



I just want to why people thought that having a dog's a** almost hit the ground was good conformation for a working breed dog!



ADD: I also know nothing of showing dogs because I don't do it. But being "stacked" or not, the dog's back has to be angled downwards in some way to look even remotely like that, right?

I mean I couldn't try hard enough to get my dog to look like I cut his back legs in half!

I'm waiting to learn, just like Launi lol



ADD: Hey it looks like Infinitely Superior is back with yet another ID lol

Answer 13

The thing is, Mr. Cosby has always been up front and candid with his thoughts. To disbelieve or disagree with his statements would be hiding your head in the sand. This however, is not a black only issue. The white kids hanging out on the corners are talking like this, and their pants are "down around the crack" too. I like his message. It's to the point, and shows us where we are headed. Was there ever a generation though, that didn't get criticized for something they were doing that didn't conform. Probably not, but were those being criticized better educated? I think so. Seems we're going backward a bit, instead of forward.

Answer 14

Some people will feed the dog when dinner is over and they think that's different, but the dog can't tell when it's dinner time and will bug you until you stop dinner and then feed him. So think about the chain of behavior that you're rewarding here. Learn here https://tr.im/chP70



Contrary to what you're being told here, feeding your dog "people food" is not what's making him beg. I'm a professional trainer and always feed my dog human quality training treats (cut up chicken, cheese, beef, turkey, etc.) and those of us trainers who do this never have a begging problem. Our dogs know that they get "paid" for correct behavior and never from the table. You could feed your dog dogfood from the table and have a begging problem. It isn't *what* you're feeding, but *when* and *where* you feed him that counts.



If you have a problem with begging, the odds are that you have other problems as well. Consider taking your dog to a basic training class to teach him to obey when you ask him to do something or stop doing something undesirable. Dogs that bark and pester you have learned bad habits-- from you! Going to a training class will help you unlearn those and help you get into better habits.

Answer 15

Really interesting topic!!



I was completely shocked when I went to the Royal Adelaide show a few years ago and saw the state of the GSD's. I was prepared for the pugs, Pekinese, British bulldogs "deformities" (sorry), but not the GSD's!!



I could not believe what I saw!

Dogs that were so structurally weak they could hardly trot in a straight line! And these are meant to be a WORKING dog???? I was appalled!!



I don't have access from my work computer to view the youtube video what you posted... But I have seen the carnage first hand!



The problems I saw had nothing, yes NOTHING to do with stacking! Of course you can exaggerate or hide things when stacking a dog, and while I cannot view the video etc - I know what I saw that day!!



Dogs that were wobbly and weak, and so sloping that it looked as if you were to push down slightly on their backs they would collapse! I could not imagine any of the dogs I saw that day "working". Not in herding, not in police work, not in anything. It was so ridiculous that I didn't know if I should cry or laugh (because they looked like cartoon caricatures of a GSD).



I simply would not have believed it if I had not seen it with my own eyes. I am not 'into' showing, so it had been a few years since I went along to one... And as someone impartial (I don't own GSD's, I don't show or breed), I will say that the change in the the breed was shocking from the last time I saw them.



Afterwards, I approached one of the owners who won their class, just to ask them, I didn't want to be rude, but I HAD to know... Why the breed has changed so much, and all the dogs are so sloping behind? She said, and I quote "so they can have more reach, drive and power". I was too stunned to respond. I just said "oh" and walked away (I know I should have said something). Could she not see that it was a weakness and not a strength? How is that possible? I couldn't get my mind around it. Obviously her 'working' dogs have never 'worked' a day in their life!



I went home and phoned my friend who has shepherds and told her what I saw (her dogs do not look like that, so I was curious as to her opinion). She said her breeder, these days she doesn't really get much of a 'look in' at shows with her dogs, simply because they don't have the extreme angles and sloping backs. Her dogs are squarer in the body, then current trends want.



Therefore her breeder has been less enthusiastic to enter shows (all the travelling, time, expense and effort) just to be sent out the ring in the beginning. So as a direct result of the JUDGING, good breeders are losing their desire to compete. Understandable.



It is easy to say that the breeders should 'flood' the ring with 'good' dogs and then the judges would have no choice... But it is harder to fight this trend then you may think. Yes blame should most definitely be laid on the shoulders of the bad breeders too, but the buck stops with the judges.



The main reason I say this is because in horse 'showing' and 'breeders' classes, where horses are only shown in hand (not ridden), it is COMMON practice for a judge to NOT issue a first place. If he or she deems there is nothing in the ring that warrants a first place ribbon - then none is given! SIMPLE! Problem solved!! End of story! I have watched this happen many times, where to the embarrassment of the competitors, the first place ribbon is discarded and only a second place is given. I even once saw a judge hand out placings from third onwards! You had better believe this makes people try to breed something that deserves a first placement.



Do you know want to know WHY this happens in horses, and yet dog breeds get mutilated the way they do? Well I will tell you what I think...



I ride horses - Eventers actually - Not 'show' horses (that doesn't interest me). Horses that are ridden have to be a TRUE working animal, that has the strength to carry a person, jump, gallop and STAY sound - or is not worth ANYTHING no matter how pretty it looks, no matter what its purity or pedigree! And because most people are interested in riding, not just having the horse prance on the end of a rope, the breeders who are interested in 'showing' are forced to take this into consideration, or no-one will buy from them.



You think paying a few thousand dollars for a dog is a lot??

I see horses everyday where basic starting prices for an average "show/competition quality" youngster is around $20,000 and if you educate them a bit, add another $10,000 to $20,000 or if they are very high quality add $100,000 or imported add another $200,000. If they are high quality and educated... well my friend just turned down an offer of several hundred grand for her 4 star (top level) eventer last year. Gelding too - Not even able to breed!! Horses also cost a small fortune to 'keep". So we don't want to produce crap, because there is an old adage in the horse world...

It costs as much to feed and shoe a crap horse as a good one!

However, although on the most part you get what you paid for... I also know many people who have paid mega bucks for horses, only to get beaten in competition, by a cheap, "heritage unknown" horse, because it did the job better! And so it should be!!



Soundness, ability and temperament are vital (a horse with a poor temperament will kill you much quicker and more efficiently then any dog).



I also KNOW that sickle hocks are a weakness (one of the first places to break down when a horse is under a heavy workload). I know what strength of topline looks like... because I sit up there and 'feel' it!!! Those dogs I saw were weak - I don't care what that lady told me at the show!!



I think some of the dog breeders of today need to take a serious look at themselves. Perhaps the top show dog breeders could take a leaf out of the pages of the top horse breeders.



Sorry for my ranting!!



EDIT: To "Expertise" - I know very little about the AKC or GSDCA or any of that stuff... I just know what I saw. It was actually the way they moved that was the most disturbing... not just how they were stacked!



Also I should say that I understand there is a place for showing and breeding to a standard (if it helps the breed) and getting rid of BYB's that add to the problem etc. But we are talking about dogs that are WINNING in the show ring, when they shouldn't... That’s when it becomes a real worry. They should be improving the breed or maintaining standard, not desecrating it. Perhaps they should also have to prove they are capable of doing whatever they were bred to do... not just trotting on the end of a lead?!

Answer 16

I don't even go past the Shepherds anymore at a benched show because it's heartbreaking to see what is being bred out there now. YUCK! I have to say it's the Judges' fault. THEY are the ones deciding who wins and who doesn't. Whatever is winning in the ring is what most breeders who breed for show are going to want. Otherwise, show people will get their dogs elsewhere.

Answer 17

It's the breeders and how they interpret the breed standard. Also, as Expertise has pointed out, these dogs are trained and conditioned to stack like that. It's just that they have been bred to have more of a slope than working line GSDs. I personally would never get a show line GSD, because I prefer the structure of the working line GSD.

Answer 18

WoW !!!

I didn't know that - thank you so much for this post I learned alot . That is horrible - then they breed these dogs for this disformation. So sad !!! Well I found another video that shows the changes of not only UKC but AKC standards . It shows several pix of GSD - thought it would be helpful to shows the changes Decade by decade .



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRU8UdMnssU

Answer 19

From my understanding a judge can tell if a dog actually has an angular back vs a dog that is made to stand that way. The stance on many GSD's is overdone, yes, but the dogs are still to standard.

Answer 20

Hm, that is an interesting question. I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough in this area to give a decent answer, but I'm interested to see how others answer!

Answer 21

Sure would like to know how many QUALITY GSD you & "Curtis": have bred...handled..FINISHED....ever even SEEN in the breed ring.



Sure wish you(the PLURAL-not personal-though if the shoe fits...) ignorant wittle kiddies could tell a correctly**********STACKED*************** specimen from a NOT!! That STAKING IS *TRAINED* & EXAGGERATED!!!! That ANY dog can be be stacked & ANY will appear entirely different when they ARE!!!



Sure wish y'all could ever figure out the AKC does ***********NOT************* breed nor judge NOR write the breed standards!!!

That the PARENT CLUB DOES.....& THEY DON'T BREED OR JUDGE EITHER!!!!



Can you GET this?