What's the general consensus for outbreeding dogs?

Question

I know breed purists hate any kind of mixed breeding regardless, but is outbreeding something that's considered bad by everyone or are there benefits to it? And based on the definition, isn't it outbreeding that saved a lot of breeds on the brink of extinction like the Irish Wolfhound? Just curious, so don't go all judgmental on me.

Answer 1

● "What's the general consensus for outbreeding dogs"



It is the ideal, essential when you are wanting to IMPROVE the breed and reduce the risk of doubling up on deleterious alleles.

But your next paragraph proves that you are referring to CROSS-breeding, not OUT-breeding (also known as OUT-CROSSing - yeah, it's a pity that doggy people can't sort out the simplest terms! The word "back" is, in my breed, almost always the incorrect term for what the opinionated writer is thinking of).



So at this stage LEARN the following terms:

💥IN-breeding and LINE-breeding are effectively the same - choosing a mating where both the sire & dam have one or more ancestors that are the same. There are divergences of opinion, but they ARE only OPINIONS. Scientifically, if the desired alleles were inherited homozygously, it was successful in-breeding; if they weren't, it was a waste of time. If the "bad" alleles were inherited homozygously then it was "in-breeding like a fool", even if the common ancestor was 7 or more generations ago. However, I think the majority of people foolishly believe that IN-breeding (aka INCEST-breeding) involves matings that double up on any of the sire's & dam's parents or grandparents or great grandparents. whereas LINE-breeding involves doubling up on an ancestor or ancestors who are 4 or more generations ago. But please NEVER forget that breeding involves the ALLELES of the genes inherited from the PARENTS, not from names further back in the pedigree. A problem is that very few of the recessive alleles we desire - ditto those we detest - are currently identifiable from DNA examination.



💥OUT-breeding is deliberately choosing to mate partners of the same breed who have no common ancestor "within living memory" - which most people probably regard as "further back than 7 generations". Although actuality is that an individual inherits half its sire's genes and half its dam's genes, that doesn't leave room for genes from grandparents, etc. So the common CoI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) calculations used are based on 25% from each P1 parent, 12½% from each P2 grandparent, 6¼% from each P3 greatgrandparent, and continuing with 3.125% from the P4s, 1.5625% from the P5s, 0.78125% from the P6s, 0.390625 from the P7s, and halving in each previous generation. Which, thanks to random chance when each gamete (ovum or sperm) is created and again at fertilisation (when a sperm merges with an ovum), is utter nonsense but DOES have the value that it serves to warn aware breeders that a particular mating is probably "closer" than is desirable.



💥CROSS-breeding is what you were thinking of, where the parents are not of the same breed.

But because ALL the breeds have the same genes, differing only in which ALLELES of certain genes have been focussed on, not even CROSS-breeding prevents "bad" alleles being inherited homozygously.



● "isn't it outbreeding that saved a lot of breeds on the brink of extinction like the Irish Wolfhound?"



No - there was only about one fertile original Irish Wolfhound left, so CROSS-breeding with such as Deerhounds was done. Because of the breed's appearance, after my wife got pissed off with GSD breeders (so signed them all over to me) she ordered a pup from what was to be my nation's first such litter. But after reading Alma Starbuck's "The Complete Irish Wolfhound" we drove the 7 or 8 hours to see the future parents (they were Juniors, too young to be mated yet) and saw that what Alma wrote was true - IWs need to be hand-fed during the crucial growing stages! So Jeannie cancelled her order.



👀 You've been told about the Dalmatian CROSS-breeding (followed by back-crossing to Dalmatians) experiment to get a line of Dalmatians that AREN'T homozygous for the recessive allele that causes kidney/bladder stones.

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=5101841&pid=11340&print=1 is a better source re the ridiculous 48 YEARS it took the DCofA and AKC to accept them as Dalmatians, although it isn't the one with photographs (that one seems to have gone off-line).

👀 You've been told about the Boxer project - a sheer-stubborn-vanity CROSS-breeding (followed by back-crossing to Boxers) by folk who who refuse to accept that dogs evolved to have tails, and the breeders should choose lines that have the genes to produce HEALTHY tails that don't need to be docked. It is doomed to failure in that all the alleles I'm aware for bob-tails are SEMI-LETHAL dominants, meaning that you can never average more than ¾ of a litter being bobtails if you mate a pair of bobtails in any of the bobtail breeds - the other ¼ of the litter dies in utero because they inherited the dominant from both parents. What's the point of breeding if you can NEVER get the whole litter to look & behave the way the breed is SUPPOSED to look & behave?

👍🏻 So I'm in favour of the Dalmatian cross-breeding, 💀 opposed to the Boxer cross-breeding. There are too many arrogant humans(?) who think that they have the right to mutilate, ruin character, etc etc.



● "Just curious, so don't go all judgmental on me."



What *I* am judgemental about is that you were too COWARDLY to use your own Yahoo ID - you hid behind the Anonymous blue bowler hat.

And I HOPE you are not the [Nancy Drew] who gullibly believes the myths about mongrels etc! Most such folk even believe that a cross between a dog & a wolf is a hybrid, despite that those 2 are of the same species (Canis) and sub-species (Canis lupus) and so are merely different varieties of Canis lupus.

Out-breeding between dogs & wolves has been done many times (the black version of the Grey wolf was "organised" by the animals themselves), and so far the out-breeding between a GSD and a wolf has resulted in 2 internationally-accepted dog-breeds:

the 1932-'75 Saarloos Wolfhound: http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/311g01-en.pdf

the 1955-'82 Czechoslovakian Vlciak/Wolfdog: http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/332g01-en.pdf



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King Les The Lofty - first pup in 1950; GSD breeder & trainer as of 1968

Answer 2

Depends. Many breeds don't have medical issues that are being attempted to be fixed by the breeders who are working with pedigree to strengthen their respective breeds.

Answer 3

Even when out crossing to save a breed, they are VERY selective when choosing breeds to use. They'd use breeds that are of the same type or share the same history. They'd also select only dogs who have the same work drive and have proven they can work and are healthy and of good temperament.



Some working types are crosses, such as Alaskan huskies and lurchers... But again, very selective breeding is used when choosing mates.



Most outcrossing is bad. People randomly choose dogs based only on cuteness or availability, slap a stupid name on the offspring and a huge price tag. These dogs have no purpose other than pets... And to lone the breeders pockets.

They aren't healthier than purebreds, they don't live longer, and they won't inherit all the best traits.

Answer 4

Personally, I love mutts.

I love their unpredictability and randomness.

BUT acknowledge they are mutts, crossbreeds, mongrels.

They are not 'designer dogs' and people who give mutts cutesie sounding names are generally backyard breeders who breed dogs purely for profit. There is virtually no profit in breeding done WELL given the costs involved in maintaining the parents in good conditiom and raising healthy puppies - even mutts

Answer 5

It is only done out of absolute necessity, and then the breeds that are allowed to be used are determined by the registering body. It is not allowed if done randomly - the end result is still a mutt. Same in the cat world (which I'm more familiar with the genetics). In the US, the Havana Brown breed is so rare that there aren't enough cats that are not related for healthy breeding. The Chestnut Oriental Shorthair is considered an acceptable cross, but those offspring must be designated as such, and cannot be registered nor shown. Can't recall offhand how the offspring end up being used in the breeding program, and when they become HB's again. Many breeders of the less common cat breeds are exchanging breeding stock with people in Europe - Sweden, Russia for example with Cornish Rex - to keep the gene pool healthy and diverse. But this is what good dog breeders should be doing as well.



But back to the question - outcrossing on a whim is not outcrossing, it's still creating a mutt.

Answer 6

Outbreeding isn't a term generally used in dog breeding (UK). Linebreeding, or inbreeding (the closest form of linebreeding) or outcrossing as in going outside a specific bloodline, yes. Breeding with another breed would be mix breeding or backcrossing, and would be done by followers of a specific breed ONLY if the gene pool was felt to have become too small. And they'd go to a breed as similar as possible to the original breed. In these days where flying to pick up a completely other bloodline, even returning to the UK now we have Pet Passport, should mean going to another breed isn't necessary other than in extreme circumstances. I seem to remember something about Dalmatians and Pointers ** (please correct me if you know I'm wrong) but it was generally frowned upon. In Bassets, when after the War things got a bit difficult, breeding to Bloodhounds (and to Beagles) happened but those who did this knew what they were doing, for the most part (recessives still come out, to bite) knew to then go back to the original breed, picking the traits of the Basset in the puppies that resulted. The trouble is what might be picked up via using another breed isn't always known. For example we get epilepsy in Bassets which was there in Bloodhounds.



I'm all for it, IF the gene pool of a breed becomes so small that it's needed. But again I'd suggest these days it's not.



Add - ** Dalmatian-Pointer 'backcrossing' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_dog Please scroll down.



Also - http://www.steynmere.co.uk/ARTICLES1.html This involves the work done some time ago breeding Boxers to Corgis to produce natural bobtails. Again the word backcrossing is used!