Was I in the wrong (20 characters)?

Question

http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/93208-tiny-terror.html#post984440

I am mongrelmomma, of course.

The advice I gave was quickly discredited and unpopular. Was I really wrong, though? I have always used negative reinforcement for any behavior I wanted to be discontinued and have never have my dogs been fearful of me as a result.

That being said, was I completely off and WRONG to give such advice? Am I really unnecessarily harsh? Looking for honest opinions.

Also, I own a toy breed and have used prong and choke chains on her-is that dangerous and the trainer who *gave* it to me just didn't tell me?

Answer 1

I use prong collars - and have done so for years. I've owned various dogs with a range of personalities. I wouldn't hesitate to put a prong on a Chi or a west highland white - its a matter of how you use it.



Admitting I'm not sure I undestand "scruffing" - (what is that?) my thinking at this time is....



Its not the collar per se. Its the degree of force and intent.



The snappy, barking dog is hard to figure out on an internet post. Some dogs truly are fearful and correcting them with force is destructive and will shut them down. Some dogs (in my experience) are not fearful - they are aggressive and have learned through their upbringing that biting is a means to an end - and without a correction, they will end up in one or two places. The pound - or the graveyard.



So, the line is this: when is using the collar for quick, decisive corrections to redirect and praise a good form of discipline and when is it flooding or defeating the dog and when is it cruel and abusive.



As far as Koehler - well, I do not hold him in high regard. Its one of those trainers that doesn't seem to have a pulse for moderation (admitting I have not read his recent books so maybe he's changed).



Sometimes guilt is by association.



To sum it up:



I don't think you were wrong to say a prong can be used on some dogs. But I would not use a prong to apply FORCE for THAT dogs problem. It doesn't mean I wouldn't have the dog wear one - but I don't advocate using NR for the problem described .



In that sense, yes, I think you are wrong. (Sorry edited now because I just quickly re-read the thread) 've posted my views on this type of problem before and its not one I deal with with force...



If "Scruffing" means grabbing the dog by the scruff of the neck, then i'm opposed to that as well, If it doesn't - then I have no idea what I think of "scruffing". It suggests (to me) a dominance theory approach - and that approach is outdated, and has been publicly decryed for some time now.



I'm just giving my impression - based on your post. If I'm wrong - then fine, but no doubt others reading it might have assumed the same.



FWIW, I do feel the poster's reprimand of your comments came across overly harsh (calling it dangerous changed the timbre of the thread and made you an outcast).



If he explained why he didn't feel it was appropriate, you might learned something without feeling like the s*t was just kicked out of you.

*****************

Add: Re-read the OP's post and short answer; its more complicated in my view than just yank and pop - and probably any help the OP got from any poster was not really effective - they need more guidance than an Internet forum is designed to do.



I have used a combination of ;

- homeopathic remedies for fear aggression (dogs snarling at me when I approach)

- restricting freedom to some degree by feeding the dog in the crate with door shut

- redirecting with obedience and structured routines essentially described in NLIF



The dogs posture, and its body language would tell alot and decide what I would do. I also would ask the poster if the dog was exhibiting any "calming signals" - and if yes, it would tell me using force would push the dog further into stress and retaliation -



Below is link to signals - It was posted here on YA by another poster and I've really felt it was well written.



FYI

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1



************

OK, rethinking - I might not put a prong a chi - too tiny and fragile.

Answer 2

No, of course it wasn't wrong.



HOWEVER--- many people (such as the ones in the forum) think that we should only be concerned with aggression in a large dog and not a small dog - this is VERY wrong. While a large dog - such as a, let's say, Mastiff - can put you in the hospital, a small dog can put a child in the hospital. Aggression of ANY kind needs to be dealt with--- if not eliminated ---controlled in ALL dogs.



As for how to DEAL with the aggression, people usually associate their dogs as "children," and of course they don't want to yell or "hurt" their own children, right? Well, welcome to the bs world of humanizing. -.-

Anyway, there are four different types of aggression. The one in the forum was experiencing territorial aggression--- which is also a form of dominance --- which can be EASILY fixed by establishing your leadership. Some think you just “alpha roll the dog and be done with it.” This is a common approach. In most cases, this is also the WRONG approach.



This is how the leadership thing goes:

If your/a dog growls at you when you go near his food bowl or if it growls at you when you go to bed and it's laying on the bed; or if it growls at you when you try and take its toy away from it--- the dog does not feel that you are a higher rank in the pack than it is. When a dog growls at kids or adults in the family, it sees itself as a higher rank than family members. When that happens... there is a MAJOR problem brewing.



PS suggesting a prong probably wasn't the smartest thing to do to a person who thinks the tree hugging approach is the best approach ;)

But it is NOT dangerous to use on a toy breed.



***Koehler training has been around for DECADES... obviously, BETTER ways have been found since then... & Koehler trained military dogs, if they didn't "survive" his training ----oh well; junk, get me some new ones, they failed. Unless you have the same philosophy with pet dogs, his methods simply don't overlap. The other argument is his work with Disney which is the same concept... if the dog wasn't to his liking, AKA not hard enough to take the extreme amounts of pressure he put on them, he'd get another dog and write that one off.

Answer 3

Ok here's the deal, (I'm Cshellenberger BTW)



Aphodite, I did NOT steal the Dragon Slaying Doberman's Logo, we had that conversation TWICE!



Aggression in ANY dog MUST be dealt with. I've dealt with aggression in dogs that were 2lbs and dogs that are 200lbs, always the SAME way, by RECONDITIONING the response.



Chokes and Prongs on toy breeds



Toy breeds are very susceptable to trachea damage, if used INCORRECTLY prongs and chokes can cause trachea damage.It takes TIMING and a VERY light hand if you're goiong to use them, something most dog owners do NOT have on thier own.



I trained Keohler (as I told you) it will cause a dog to shut down if the dog is soft, in a 7 month old toy breed it's not needed when Other methods will resolve the RG issue equally as well without the possibility of causing hte dog to shut down or escalate the behavior (I've seen both result using Keohler)



There is no such thing as a purely positive trainer, all training has punishment forms, they just are not neccesarily physical.



As far as Keoler outdated, yes. The THEORY it's based upon has been disproven oh, and Classical and Operent conditioning (look it up) was around LONG before Keohler look up "Pavlov's Dog". The method is over a 100 years old, and has been proven to work in trial after trial.



Oh, and I've trained dogs sice I was 12 years old, have Obedience titles using many different methods and I've helped rehabb dogs with aggression. I'm certainly NOT soft and I don't train on an "Emotional" level. I use WHAT WORKS.



You might ALL read the Sources sited below and here's a Quote



"Dog trainers have commonly accepted a model of training based on a supposed emulation of the behaviors of wolves, particularly alpha wolves. Central to this model is the notion of 'dominance.' This model is conceptually flawed in that it rests on some serious misconceptions about wolf behavior as well as serious misconceptions about the interactions between dogs and humans." -- Moving Beyond The Dominance Myth, Morgan Spector



"'Alpha' wolves (now simply called 'breeders' by most wolf biologists) do not train other members of the pack. Current wolf studies have also shown that they are not always the leading animals when wolves travel, nor do they always lead in hunting or eat first when a kill is made." -- "Letting Go Of Dominance," Beth Duman

Answer 4

I just skimmed through it but it is clear that they lack not only dog sense, but common sense.



They are basing their reaction on how they would feel if the training was done to *them*, anyone with a basic brain stem can, or should, see how ridiculous that is. Advice such as you should let your dog growl at you to 'warn' you - sorry, but who the f-ck lets their dog 'warn' them of a bite?? Who let their own dog growl at them?? What is next, shall i let my dog piss on me to 'warn' me he is feeling a bit ''dominant inclined'' today??

They are making points about Koehler advocating helicoptering as if it is a factor in how the dogs are meant to be trained, when in fact it is something to be done when the dog is threatening your safety!! I also doubt anyone is dumb enough to think that having to resort to helicoptering a 3lb dog is really an option.



Dogs are simple, it is humans who make them complicated because for the most part, we cannot comprehend how they think and why they behave the way they do.

They are selfish beings and will do what best works for them. If you want a dog to do something, you have to appeal to their selfish and self preserving nature.

Train the dog in a way that it knows it has the choice to do things, but that for every choice it makes, there is a subsequent reaction. If the dog growls - make the reaction tailor suit that dog to ensure it never thinks about it again. If the dog learns a desired command - make it the greatest thing ever and teach the dog that it is EXPECTED that it will do that. To not do it will bring about a negative result!!



Whether the dog is wearing a choke chain, a prong or an e-collar makes not a damn bit of difference to how well a dog is trained if the moron at the other end hasn't a clue how to use them. If you are still having to use it on a dog you have been training for years, you suck at it if it takes you years to get a dog not to pull when out on a walk.

Similarly, no correction is not a correction. The dog is not a human and cannot understand, never mind learn from the human concept of 'ignoring' or even a 'time-out'...



A dog won't learn without encouragement and a dog will not know what is expected of him without correction. Get a balance of the two and don't think in terms of all one or the other, because neither is going to work as effectively without the other side!

Answer 5

No, I don't think you were in the wrong. Some dogs just need to be put into their place BY FORCE because nothing else gets through to them.



I have a 80lb GSD mix. I'm 100lbs. It's very dangerous for me not to be in control of her. So, I decided to do nothing but positive reinforcement starting the very day she came home at eight weeks. Eight months later and she only sits on command, and only if you're bribing her with a treat. I recently gave in and tried negative reinforcement, because I'm honestly starting to get scared that I'll lose control of her and she'll hurt some one. She's laying down on command. She has NEVER done that before EVER in her entire life for ANYONE. I'm looking in to getting a prong collar to stop her insane pulling on leash and hopefully, I pray, she'll learn quickly with just a few corrections because I do hate using it. But if it works - it works. I'd rather use a prong collar than have to put her to sleep because she bit someone.

Answer 6

For me resource guarding suggests a lack of trust, which is why I don't use negative corrections when it crops up. To be completely honest I've had better results using positive association.



But I do believe corrections have their place and do and have used prongs on my dogs with much success with other issues.

Answer 7

No,you weren't harsh. I always laugh when people say to "never ,ever" use physical punishment on a dog. I have and will. When you have a very stubborn dog or one that shows signs of aggression,you have to nip it in the bud. Any time I have had a puppy or dog growl at me,they immediately get rolled and scruffed. They rarely repeat the behavior. I have had dogs for 50 years and have never had a food-aggressive dog because they know that it's MY food,not theirs. I have also never had a dog be afraid of me after being punished physically. That happens only with dogs that are routinely abused.



If more people used a little physical punishment early on,there would be a lot fewer troublesome dogs. It's the same with kids - spare the rod and spoil the child. I'm not saying to BEAT a dog,but a scruffing,a roll, or a swat on the nose or butt can quickly put a stubborn dog in line.



I wouldn't use a prong or choker on a toy breed,though,as they have such delicate tracheas. I walk my Chihuahua with a buckle collar or harness,but I have never had a problem with her pulling on the lead.



So,no,I do not think that you are too harsh.

Answer 8

No, you're dealing with a bunch of people that own small yappy untrained spoiled dogs that wouldn't think of applying a physical correction let alone raise their voice.



Why do they hear about so many members on that forum getting bitten when someone finally tries to apply a correction? Because the dog is a little spoiled brat with no boundaries so of course it is going to snap - it doesn't know any better and probably doesn't care.



Most of the dogs probably rule their households.



Oh and that "moderator" person - it was nice of them to steal their signature picture of the Dragon Slaying Doberman that is from the Doberman forum I frequent.

I'll be sure to let that member know...

Answer 9

Just ignore them, do whatever works for you and your dogs. Some people on here think that they way they do things is the only way. They get a bit nasty if you disagree with them too. They are a bit up themselves too.

I always use choke chains on my big dogs and harnesses on my small ones. I do what works for the individual dog and never have any problems.

Answer 10

No. Not all dogs respond well to all-positive reinforcement. The other posters' failure to recognize that makes me question how much experience they actually have with high drive dogs.

Answer 11

i have a comment on the choke chain. i recently found out that all smaller dogs should only use harnesses. smaller dogs should never have a neck collar on or a choke chain. these smaller dogs have very fragile esophaguses. and its said to be very common that there esophaguses are getting ripped when someone pulls the leash. it can actually make a dog suffacate. please pass this info on.

Answer 12

Oh lord....No you were not harsh



I'm getting a little tired of all the Positive Only nuts running around saying that we're mean and hateful and blah blah....



Bottom line is...and I quote a person with DECADES of experience training REAL WORKING dogs....Fads dont last long, proven methods do, proofing without compulsion, like an E-Collar, Prong, etc CANNOT happen



All this New Age "dont hurt my doggie and his feelings" CRAP is just a FAD. Dogs have been around for thousands of years...they have been trained and treated like DOGS and served out their purposes WELL. No reason to change all of that b/c some bleeding heart does not understand the different between a dog and a damn toy



@Koehler method is outdated since it doesnt take into consideration your dog's feelings....and lacks the amount of treats necessary for your doggie to feel loved!!!!! ;)

Answer 13

My ans. is pretty short because Just Bells said it all and made me smile reading it.