What is considered to be " True " aggression?

Question

What is considered to be " True " aggression?

Answer 1

All the examples you cite are "true aggression" - they all make a dog OFFENSIVELY attack or bite someone or something.



I think what you mean by "true aggression" is "aggression to the point where it cannot be controlled or untrained". The examples are dogs in any of the categories you mentioned - fear, dominance, territorial, resource guarding, and more - that cannot be successfully trained to replace their aggression with acceptable behaviors.



Since the way that *I* define it has to do with genetic temperament and therefore untrainablity, no, by my definition you can't "untrain" true genetic aggression.



ADD: Greek brings up a great point - genetic levels of aggression and stability, reactivity, responsiveness, and intelligence all work TOGETHER along with training to determine actual behavior. I have met dogs with very low levels of "aggression" but who were also highly reactive and unresponsive to training - these dogs were far more dangerous than dogs with high levels of aggression that would respond instantly to a command and hold that command like a rock under any circumstances.

Answer 2

Hmmmm... I knew this was one to mark 'interesting', go get a cup of coffee, sit back and watch the show.



Aggression can't be discussed without being aggressive it would seem?



Now that's wierd as aggression is an interesting topic. It can be both reactive or proactive or even generated at random from brain tumors or drugs. So I can't really see what 'true' aggression is unless you mean a proactive trouble maker. Dogs that are set on people are reacting to a trained command plus a conditioned response that boosts their natural talent. Fear biters are reacting to percieved threats and I wouldn't keep one of those in my house because it is me who needs to decide whether the dog needs to stand up for itself or not.



Anyway....here's how it kind of goes:

http://leerburg.com/aggresiv.htm?set=1



- tops up another cup of coffee......

Answer 3

I would define "true" aggression as unwarranted, random, unprovoked.



Fear aggression can certainly be trained out of a dog if the dog learns to trust you. Fear aggression towards other dogs and strangers can also be dealt with by socializing your dog with other dogs and strangers - group obedience goes a long way to help with that.



I've fostered many dogs, some that were unsocialized (breeders dumped in rescue, dogs never properly socialized, etc.) and was able to rehabilitate them all and place them in great homes.

They are all doing very well as loved companion animals with no more aggression issues at all.

Exception was one dog who was just "wired wrong" as 3 vets and 9 months of trying everything showed, that dog simply should not have been bred, he would go from sitting on your lap to attacking you - everyone at some point or other, turned out he had major neurological damage and simply could not be a safe pet, so it does happen, but it is rare.



Note: Not even going to go into the fact that our resident GG bad mouths and tries to browbeat everyone who doesn't agree with him.

Main thing to realize is that he does NOT talk about companion dogs - he admits that he would not even have a dog if he didn't make his living from them.

He is talking about a very specific kind of dog -- trained for protection and fighting, he has absolutely no clue or experience with companion animals which is what most of us here are familiar with and talking about.



You most certainly CAN train most fear aggression out of normal dogs, it is defensive, not offensive. Remove the stress and the condition goes away with it, I've found that out time after time, as has every rescue person I know.

Dogs specifically chosen for the kind of aggression he talks about are not pets or companions and no one in their right mind would have one.



Note: Thanks for a most amusing, and I suspect pretty accurate, synopsis of the wanna be

Deity -- didn't Nero and Caligula have similar pretentions?

In any case, I don't pay much attention to his hateful spewings and can only wonder why some relatively decent posters on here give him any credit at all.

He states he would not own a dog except to make money, he trains schutzhunds, he obviously advocates dog fighting -- and, worst of all, he has not the slightest interest in, or knowledge of, companion animals. Most of us relate to pets, not savage, subjugated by terror dogs owned by very sad guys who need to dominate dogs to feel "powerful", that's everything most of us stand against.



Note: Wasn't going to prolong this as I suspect most of us have this GG's number by now, but just had to laugh at his recent rantings - not just funny about the dangerous Smurfs he has his "highly trained" dogs attack (when they aren't going for him), but I have such a vivid picture of him flailing his arms, frothing at the mouth and yelling "LEMME AT HIM, LEMME AT HIM', just like Bugs Bunny in the cartoons. Too bad he can't see how he comes across, but he seems to lack a sense of humor - along with a lot of other things.

Answer 4

I would consider most of what you have mentioned to be true aggression.



IMO, unpredictability is the biggest issue when it comes to aggression. If a dog is predictable you can usually manage the environment to prevent aggression or teach the dog that the aggressive response is unacceptable.



I suspect what you were dealing with in the case of your Sibe was simply a dog who wanted to run things, and was putting other dogs in their place. I would not define that as aggression, because there is no real desire to hurt the other dog, and if the other dog submits there is no fight.

Answer 5

LOL!!! look at the fur fly in here!



Greek, you really, really, really, need to find a better outlet for your anger issues.



You need a place more appropriate to discuss your area of expertise. This board, with its community of 99% domestic dog owners, isn't a right fit for you.



You've said so yourself in so many words often.



You should just say your educated piece, and if people have opposing opinions, then rebut them without the foaming-mouth roid rage abusiveness.



On a question like this, I wouldn't even answer in total deference to your SME, but I felt moved to comment on your abusiveness - which, ultimately, is self-defeating for you.



Thing is, even when you're 'right', your answers have such a tone of anger towards dogs that fall short of your ideal and a relishing of punishing them. One would think from your own comments that you hate dogs.



Anyways, your answer today crossed a line. If can't keep a lid on CrazyRoidRageGuy in here, the community should "Report Abuse" you into oblivion.



Oh, and please relay my comments to your blurting semi-literate sidekick Sisyphus, Greek King of unintelligible sentence fragments

Answer 6

Those are all true and real aggression, people will just distinguish the aggression so that it will make it easier to correct the problem. If you know where the aggression is coming from then you will know where to start when trying to remove it.

Answer 7

What is meant by True Aggression: Must be somewhere between REAL aggression and TOTAL aggression.



.......................



Or basically, whatever the hell you want. Its a load of crap. A fabrication for the Disney Channel.



Rescue Member: Greek is a cyber bully who gets his rocks off pretending he actually knows how to train serious dogs. Cripes - he trains dogs to bite himself - ask yourself what moron would do that, and further, what kind of dog it takes. I mean this is the kind of stuff that makes great footage for America's stupidest dog trick.



If you want a laugh, follow his posts (its not hard, he posts on literally every thread ....) if you actually follow them...you will realize he is a big fake.



First, he finally admitted the other day he doesn't even breed dogs. He did say he "has his hand in many breedings" and a visual image entered my mind that well....its not pretty and I think it explains A LOT (wink wink nudge nudge I think I'm going to barf)



Hes' just a arm chair advocate for puppy mill producers to claim victory in a stupid sport that attracts ego maniacs who like to pretend they have killer dogs but in fact the dogs wade through puddles (literally) and attack Smurfs (again, I am not kidding - its like circus dogs gone crazy)...



And between the hundreds of hours he spends spewing crap on YA, and the purple smurf attacks he has his dog doing (presumably when his hand is free ...ugh), he finds time to have trained literally thousands of dogs. YES, THOUSANDS.



Which when you consider each year has 365 days - and if "trained" takes 6 weeks (since his method is basically to tie his dog to a Pole Top Transformer and then hit the on switch until it stops shaking) - that would mean ~ 9 dogs a year.



Do the math and this means he is either 3500 years old - or full of shyte.



So no worries, only weak minded morons believe him and take anything he says seriously.



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To the Op: It is true that all dogs are not 100% hostile to all dogs - and aggression is an act of hostility.



Your dog is typical of most dogs.



Here's a website - while I might not agree with all of it, it has compartmentalized aggression into varies types and its probably a good place to start.



http://k9aggression.com/dog-aggression-overview/types-of-dog-aggression/

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@RescueMember : Yes, the whole "I'm a God and dogs must serve me or die" makes me barf too. Beyond all that - what did take me a while to catch on is he is also a hypocrite - and will appeal to whatever personality he wants. In other words - he lies. So, at first blush - I can see how people might think he's credible.



He claims to be a trainer of KNPV - maybe I can find the video ...the Giant Purple Smurfs get me every time. I never laughed so hard. The daring feats of dogs running through puddles after cartoon characters....its too funny



But, yeah, I guess training your own dog to bite yourself is ....(wait for it)........TRUE AGGRESSION.

Ha.

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@Jojo: Last year when he told a poster to buy a frog-dog GSD from Spain was another hi-light. Realist my **** - its kick-backs and commissions from sport breeders that matter to him.

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@Caligula - I mean Greeky - Honestly, I should thank you for posting. No one on YA has been so blatantly and openly cruel to dogs and at the same time, given me such great material to mock. You want to meet ...how creepy. What are you going to do - show me how you hang your dog or zap it senseless. Or maybe throw it head first into a brick wall (another recent post of yours) with your bare hands. Oh wait, those are your breeding hands (ewwww). Relax Mr. Handyman (your new YA name) you need not prove to me that you can train a dog to attack yourself on command because on this point, I absolutely believe you.

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LOL. In fairness, I expect he has a high demand to sell dogs to people with split personalities..... the guy yells (at himself)...GET HIM YOU POS ...and then the dog is about to attack him when his other personality yells (back at himself): BACK OFF HANDYMAN - OR YOUR CINDER DUST. And so it goes...the bugs bunny theme playing in the background.



he's never owned a dog past 7 yrs (they die of torture)...he zaps them till their cinder dust..and then sweeps them up and molds them into little Gumbies and Pokeys..and then poses them on his mantle alongside his Purple Hands....(ewwwwww)

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Hes' not RIGHT - SOME dogs have learned behaviours that result in fear aggression and can be retrained. Not all breeds are candidates - but its hardly fair to say never. SME? Maybe in brutality, torture, and animal cruelty. He's perceived as "expert" on YA because people here don't know better. He lies and fabricates. He's a fraud. (Greekie - are we a tad paranoid now?)

Answer 8

True Aggression, to me, is genetic aggression or unprovoked aggression. Meaning that the dog is attacking for no other reason than something in its brain is telling it to. Much like in the APBT with dog aggression. APBTs aren't fearful of other dogs, they are not dominant towards other dogs, they just want to kill other dogs because they are genetically hardwired to do it. The dog doesn't have to do anything to them but breathe. You can not fix true aggression. You can manage it and stop them from attacking people or other dogs with the use of a muzzle and a super short leash but you can not rehabilitate the dog. The only cure for true aggression is death.

Answer 9

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Answer 10

First, TRUE aggression is NOT based on any of the behaviors mentioned in here. It does or can have some dominance mixed with it, however, true aggression is based on SOLID nerves and self confidence. TRUE aggression is a beautiful thing to see in a dog that genuinely possess it. Its the calmness before the storm, the radiance it produces....have you ever seen a dog work IN true aggression? I assure you, you will never forget it.



One such dog was Byrak..a Malinois out of the NVBK, Endor is another and finally Egbert, his litter mate ALL have it in spades. These dogs represent the TOP end of ACTIVE aggression while being solid in the head. This type of aggression CANNOT be "cured" or "loved" or "trained" out of a dog, it can only be controlled and given direction to express itself it a proper manner, period, end of.



I love it when the ignorant claim that fear aggression can be trained out of a dog when it is a GENETIC issue and therefore will be there for life, same for true aggression. I ca go on and give more examples, but, you get the point.



ADD: Rescue member..must you prove how much of an idiot you truly are each and every time you try to take me on? DEFENSE, as you put it, in based on FEAR, all of it, every time, all the time, FOR LIFE because its based on GENETICALLY weak nerves, period, end of.

In your hurry to talk crap about those who are LIGHT years ahead of you in ALL dogs, you forget who you are addressing. Since this is a genetic issue, it CANNOT be trained out of a dog.



Next, most intelligent people want the dogs I have and sell because they KNOW that for this type of money they get TOP dogs. SOLID, excellent nerves...not the crap you peddle to the unsuspecting public. Yes, I would NOT own a dog if it was not related to my work, what for?

Lastly, what the hell does dog fighting have to do with any of this, I knew you were an imbecile, but, even I had no idea how big of one you really are.



ADD: Ehhh, the day I allow the jealousy and vitriol spewed by two lonely old biches in here whose only "social" contact is their dogs and who are self professed "dog lovers" is the day I need to start worrying. Again, it seems that whenever I post this, Chix and jojo both STFU, but, anytime you want to compare your "training" to mine, we can do it, live for everyone in here to see. Talk is cheap, here is an invite, again, to show everyone here, and me, all that you talk about.I have dealt with jealous, wannabe idiots my whole life, two more wont make any difference...any takers, Chix, we can meet at your 'secret training facility and you may actually find your balls to post under your real name and account, how about it?



ADD: Still adding on Chix...you must have fell of the wagon again, but, yet, that is all you can do..the challenge will go unanswered because all bitter old btches can do is talk and PRETEND they know...



ADD: Interesting post Chix...calling me by a name only friends do...Greekie...Well, as usual, your mouth is running but nothing you said means anything in my life, never did, the fact does remain, however, that just as I thought, all you are is talk, thats it. Never will you address your training place nor any of the of the other crap you promote..and again, when you post under your REAL name, another point you ignore every time, maybe I will do you the favor and listen, until then, stick with your crowd, you all have a mating call...no one else would mate any of you...

Answer 11

My dog is dominant aggressive, and it is really hard to deal with, but in the last few years I have come up with a technique that has her thinking twice. First off, she is a fixed female, and is probably the most dominant dog I have ever encountered. Like when I take her to the dog park or to a friends house with dogs, you can tell the atmosphere changes, because the dogs become very nervous and fearful. OK, when she encounters a dog that I guess challenges her or does not submit to her, she will go on the attack so first off I correct her by touching her on the neck and saying 'No' very firmly. Then I put her in the submissive position, on her back and bring the other dog over to smell her. She doesn't like it but since I'm pack leader she doesn't have a choice. She now most of the time will growl at a dog that wont submit to her, but looks to me for guidance and I in return for her not attacking will tell the dog to leave her alone. I've learned that I can't teach her to not be dominant, its her personality, its who she is, but I can teach her control and to let me handle things. Hope this helps :)

Answer 12

Soundness of temperament and defensive aggression are not mutually exclusive, if a dog it put in a situation where it is faced with a real threat to its safety and the “leader” dithers on the sideline deciding whether or not to step in or do nothing, a self-confident dog would not fold mentally under the pressure and attack if that was the best option to defend itself. That is aggression working from a sound temperament.



In contrast if a dog is born predisposed to react fearfully in certain situation it would have a lower threshold (point at which is reacts to the stimulus) than a dog with a normal temperament and higher level of reactivity (how the dog reacts – lunging, growling, snapping against a lead if it cannot remove itself where it has been exposed to one of its environmental stressors ect).



There is in my opinion a spectrum of temperaments ranging from neurotic that cannot cope with everyday life, mildly to moderately weak, within the range of normal, self confident or at the extreme end dominant aggressive, which is not suited to work, sport or as a household pet dog.



Rehabilitation presupposes that a dog is born with a sound temperament and has learned bad behaviors (allowed to gain the upper hand or mistreated and learned coping behaviors) and that is not the case with a dog born with a degree of weakness in its temperament. However good the quality of the training and leadership, a genetic predisposition that was part of the dog from conception cannot be trained out of it and though depending on the degree of weakness it may be possible to suppress the trigger by raising the dog’s level of tolerance, increasing confidence and trust in the owner, it will always be there bubbling away under the surface.



As another example of aggression and a soundness of temperament, it is a breed specific trait of male Dobermans from puberty to begin to show same sex aggression and though the strength of the trait varies with the dog, few will live harmoniously with another male without dog fights and when taken out to be exercised, though the natural instinct can be controlled by someone who can train a dog against it and to choose compliance over acting on it, it would still be there. My male Doberman would not go looking to start a fracas or fight, but neither would he meekly back down and tuck tail if a dog was “in his face” attempting to dominate or bully him.



All aggression comes from temperament, and not all aggressive behavior is related to unsoundness. The context in which the aggressive behavior occurred would is important in understanding why the dog reacted in the way it did.

Answer 13

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Well-trained pets are easier to care for and love, cause less damage to your home (and theirs), and live happier lives.



Dogs send myriad messages with their bodies and their voices -- this is one reason why they're so fascinating and beloved. The more you understand their messages, the more you understand them and how your own messages are being understood.

Answer 14

In my opinion there is not a specificTRUE aggression catagory for dog aggression, only "types" of aggression.

Some dogs may possess two or a lot more "types" in its nature.

I suppose the nearest "I" can get to defining anything like so called "true" aggro would be a dog that was confident enough to defy and insist on doing what "it" wanted to do by showing extreme aggression to whoever tried to make it do otherwise and not backing down to any really harsh corrections. Or to go down fighting.

Such a dog would not be a candidate for rehabilitation. Jmo.



@ Chix...Couldn`t have put it better myself...re: Mr self appointed Realist. (What a joke!) Well said.



@ Geek! If I want your opinion....I`ll dial up "Rent an Idiot" End of.

Answer 15

Just in my opinion, i think it's aggression that can't be controlled. I mean, my dog will try and attack other dogs, but if i whacked him over the head with with his chain lead he'd shut up pretty quick. I think a truly aggressive dog would turn on you instead. That's just my guess!

Answer 16

I have 4 wolfdogs, your dog is simply Alpha and she will only show her dominance when another dog is not submissive enough. For the type of dog you have it is quite normal.

Answer 17

Aggression is a behavior which is learned, and can be "unlearned" by a skilled trainer. Aggression is not a disorder like dysplasia or parvo that can be treated.



A human can be nearsighted and can be greedy. Greedy is taught and can be unlearned. Nearsightedness must be treated..