Question:
breeding a solid white german shepherd with a solid black german shepherd?
anonymous
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
breeding a solid white german shepherd with a solid black german shepherd?
24 answers:
DaBasset - BYBs kill dogs
2009-03-22 07:33:57 UTC
The fact that you don't have even a basic knowledge of genetics, and that you need to ask this question here, indicates that you should not be breeding at all until you have spent a couple of years educating yourself on the subject.
abbyful
2009-03-22 07:32:37 UTC
White is a disqualifying color in GSDs. They should not be bred.

.
Kip's Mom
2009-03-22 07:49:41 UTC
If white GSDs are a separate "breed" according to the UKC, then they still SHOULD NOT be bred to a black GSD.



If you have to ask here, you shouldn't breed.
ainawgsd
2009-03-22 07:39:27 UTC
Please please please please reconsider this. If you don't even know the basic color genetics then I'm sure you also don't know what genetic diseases are lurking in the dogs' backgrounds.



As to your question, white is a recessive gene and in GSDs it is recessive to all other colors. That means that in order for any of the puppies to be white both parents have to be carrying the gene. The white dog can ONLY contribute the white color gene. If the black dog is carrying the gene for white, then some of the puppies may be white. If not, then not one single puppy will be white. You need to go back farther than one generation (grandparents) to know what the black dog may or may not be carrying.



Black in and of itself is not recessive to the other colors. The solid color pattern is what is recessive to other patterns such as blanket, saddle, sable, and bi-color. Color and pattern are dictated by different locations on the DNA. White dogs also have a pattern, however white is a masking gene in addition to a recessive gene so it will "cover" or "hide" any pattern that is present. Without knowing what pattern(s) the white dog may be carrying you can not say what color the puppies will be with any certainty. You could end up with black and tan/red/cream/silver, solid black, or sables.



I own white german shepherds. I love them and I think that the color is beautiful, even if it is a disqualifying fault. However, it IS a disqualifying fault and no one who is breeding responsibly would ever intentionally breed for a disqualifying fault. The UKC does recognize white shepherds as a separate breed, and I am less bothered by people breeding UKC white shepherds because they are breeding to a breed standard, not against it. But that's not what you're talking about here.
anonymous
2009-03-22 12:40:22 UTC
Go away.
Lauren R
2009-03-22 08:26:18 UTC
More breeding questions? You really plan on undertaking the birth of not one, but two litters? If you think breeding for color or "cuteness" is a good idea, you need to reconsider. THe point here is not whether white is a qualifying color or whether the White Shepherd is a separate breed....the issue is that you are totally clueless about genetics and breeding, and both of your questions regarding (I'm assuming) your white shepherd lead me to believe your motivations are less than sound. If you want a specific look, I'm 100% positive you can find a puppy without creating more unwated litters in your mad-scientist experiments. Please please please leave breeding to breeders.
anonymous
2009-03-22 07:33:46 UTC
They'll be anything that's in the pedigree of either dogs. However, only dogs that are Champion Titled should be breeding. The only reason one should ever breed is for the improvement of the breed, not to produce certain colors.
♥♥MickeyMouse♥♥
2009-03-22 13:37:33 UTC
why are you breeding?!!? there are enough animals already "cute" enough out there with no homes. Go get them spayed and neutered... 77
My Dog Bites Better Than Yours
2009-03-22 09:01:38 UTC
How do their parents look? Grand- and Great Grand parents? All this contributes.



Also consider:

Do the temperments of the potential parent complement each other? Any genetic problems?

Both parents registered with AKC or some other legimate breed registry?

Can you demonstrate to a knowledgeble, dispassionate person why these dogs should be bred?
anonymous
2009-03-22 07:49:20 UTC
They may have mrkings depends on grandparents. We have a daughter of the same mating and she is sable. Like Grandpa on mom's side. Mom was blk
anonymous
2009-03-23 09:38:06 UTC
[tac] and [El Loco Pollo]:

Learn some GSD genetics before you next dream of attempting to answer this sort of question.



[ainawgsd]:

White is NOT "a recessive gene". See furtehr down.

Nor is white "recessive to all other colours" - its 2 gene pairs are epistatic to all other patterns & colours.



[winterru...]:

You'd have to provide a weird "diet" to drastically affect pattern & colour.



Okay, to the question:

Firstly, apart from possible white spots on toes, chest, and maybe tail tip, there will be NO black-&-white pups. The only such GSD pups are self-black descendants of Franka von Phenom who inherited her dominant mutation for "Panda"-markings.



Now learn how the self-black GSD and the self-white pooches are created.



In GSDs, all actual self-colours (whether black, liver or blue; white is not a colour, but a LACK of colour) are set by the recessive pairing a^ a^ in the Agouti Pattern series. The default colour from a^ a^ is self-black, but a pair of the recessive b^ in the Black-brown series will convert that to liver; a pair of the recessive d^ in the Dilute series will convert the black to the blue-gray referred to as blue. If the pup inherits both b^ b^ and d^ d^ the combined effect is a creamy-blue known as Isabella. (A pair of the b^ and/or d^ will also affect the dark area of dogs whose Agouti genes produce sable or saddle or bi-colour. Either pair also affects the colour of the "leathers" - eye-rims, nose, lips, pads.)



In all self-white breeds so far DNA tested the recessive pairing e^ e^ is present. But its effect is not to produce self-white, just to prevent eumelanin (dark pigment) from being formed by the hair follicles - something else has to block the phaeomelanin (tan pigment). However, as the factors for self-white behave as though they were a simple recessive, we can be sure that the second gene involved must be on the same chromosome as the e^, and located VERY close to it. In some breeds (eg, Samoyeds) the tan-blocker has been identified as the a^ a^ that produces recessive self-black, but there seems to be a different-but-not-yet-identified gene doing it in GSDs.



So your foolish plan is to be mate a self-black

(thus proven to be a^ a^ plus B^ ?^ plus D ?^ plus E^m ?^ plus ?^ ?^)

to a self-white

(thus proven to be ?^ ?^ plus ?^ ?^ plus ?^ ?^ plus e^ e^ plus Int^ ?^).

(PS: That E^m could be an E, but that is very unlikely in our breed.)



The ?^s are where you give us no evidence as to which allele of that series is present to make up the pair of alleles that every individual inherits in every gene location except on just the X chromosome. To work it out just remember that the series I am mentioning are A for Agouti, B for Black-brown, D for Dilute, E for Extension, and Int for Iljin's Intensity series. There are other colour series (you'll find all the known ones in the Files section of http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/The_G... but will need to become an instant-member, as Yahoo doesn't let me make that section "Public access") but they have no significant effect in your case.



From you, we have no idea what the self-white has in the Agouti series, but a many self-whites are genetically sables, so it is highly probable that he is A^w a^t (wolf-sable + saddle), very possible that he is a^t a^t. It's possible but unlikely that he is A^w a^ or a^t a^ - people who understand genetics do NOT want the genes from a self-white degrading the depth & shine of the self-black's all-over darkness, n or the all-over spread of eumelanin (dark pigment) making it harder for the e^ e^ to have its epistatic effect of blocking the eumalin (most whites have some "badger markings" where the phaemelanin (tan) wasn't completely blocked).



What it boils down to is that if the self-black is E^m e^ half the pups ( ± whatever random chance "decides" during the moments of fertilisation) will be self-white, about half won't. If the self-black is the E^m E^m that is preferred, all the pups won't be self-whites.



Either way, about half the pups are likely to be sables (assuming that the sire carries just one A^w) with the others probably being saddles. But they could ALL be saddles, or about half could be self-blacks. But if one parent is a self-black it is impossible to get all 3 of sables, saddles and self-blacks in the same litter, just any 2 of those. Of course, if the self-black dam carries an e^, about half the pups will look white and you won't be able to tell what pattern they are meant to be.



Regardless of their displayed colours, ALL the pups will be carriers of an a^ for self-colour from mum and an e^ for no-black from dad, plus are almost certain to have an Int^ or an int^ from dad.

The effect of Int^ or int^ will be that all the non-whites will have poor tans - from chalky "silver" to a washed-out creamy-fawn.

If the dam is carrying an e^, then about half the coloured pups will probably be "dirty yella dawgs" with no black - maybe when they're born, but definitely by the time they are about 2½ years old.



To complicate it:

Many of the people who produce pet-level self-whites are very happy to use carriers of liver or blue.

Although DogSport fanciers of blacks would avoid carriers of liver & blue, again pet-level BYBs might include them. So it's possible that the non-whites might be blue or liver instead of black where black should be in whatever their Agouti pattern is.



The possibilities are predictable (always allowing for random chance when the pairing at a locus is not homozygous), but you haven't given us evidence as to what alleles each parent is likely to possess, apart from the series that produced the black in one case, the white in the other case.



If your bit.ch were of breeding quality, you would be asking her breeder, not asking here where a high proportion of the so-called answers come from know-it-all kids pretending to be adult & expert.

If the stud you had in mind were of breeding quality, you would be asking HIS owner or breeder.



But in case I'm wrong about your bit.ch and that stud:

The ultimate proof of a GSD being of breeding quality is possessing a Breed Survey report (BS.Cl. in English, KKl. in German). No self-white is eligible for that, as all whites and blues and livers are disqualified in FCI#166: http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/166A199... which is the ONLY GSD Standard approved by the WUSV (World Union of GSD Clubs, which has at least one seat-&-vote for every GSD nation and meets in conjunction with each SiegerSchau to sort out GSD issues).



But whatever the breed, the MINIMUM requirements for proving a medium-sized pooch breed-worthy are:

(1) recorded on the Breed Register without any limitations

(2) possesses official certificates for both hips & elbows

(3) possesses show certificates (placings or Excellent gradings) to prove that it looks typical of its breed.

Highly desirable are:

(4) a character certificate - BH or CGC

(5) a training qualification - for a GSD the ideal is HGH or SchH1, but all training qualifications prove that at least the pooch is highly willing to take notice of what its owner wants.



Sadly, almost every KC cares only whether both parents are in the same Breed Register - no checking on character or conformation or health or size or trainability...



Unless your bit.ch measures up, and so does the stud you choose to compensate for her flaws, forget about breeding from her.



And I haven't even touched on the financial risks every breeder faces.

Les P

owner of GSD_Friendly: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/GSD_Friendly

"In GSDs" as of 1967
?
2016-12-18 23:33:21 UTC
Solid Black German Shepherd
?
2016-10-07 05:53:51 UTC
Black And White German Shepherd
anonymous
2015-08-06 23:11:13 UTC
This Site Might Help You.



RE:

breeding a solid white german shepherd with a solid black german shepherd?

would there be mixed, black and white dogs and then some white and some black? I'm not sure what colors would come out?

both the white's parents are white dogs and we are planning on making sure the black dog's parents are both black. does this help?
winterrules
2009-03-22 08:17:20 UTC
The pups can be any color. Obviously your white dog is not a show champion and never will be. Other than color does she meet the breed standards? Does she hold any obedience or working titles? Have her hips been evaluated by the OFA or Penn Hip? Has she been screened for any other genetic defects? If you can answer yes to all these questions and the male can say yes to the same questions they might be suitable prospects for breeding. Its time to learn all you can about breeding and raising puppies. But there is no predicting what color the puppies will be. They might not be black or white. Black and tan is just as likely. There is more than one gene that determines color. Its not as simple as a recessive white gene. Colors can be affected by hormones, nutrition and more.
Sandgroper
2009-03-23 06:13:26 UTC
To answer your rather common and often asked question, doubtful if any of the pups would be white, 2 white GSD will only have white pups.. IF, the black GSD carried the white gene, then some of the puppies would be coloured and some would be white. However, most GSD do not carry the white gene anymore, so it would be more likely that all the GSD would be coloured. To know for sure you would have to look into the breeding history of your black GSD and see if any white pups have been born in the last 3 generations, and even then you could only assume.

As all GSD are popular breeds with many experienced breeders producing enough pups, be very careful breeding low quality dogs. You could not expect to get much for pet quality GSD, as to be blunt, there a dime a dozen, just check out the puppies for sale and re-home sites.
anonymous
2014-04-13 12:37:58 UTC
Contrary to the myth, the White German Shepherd Dogs are NOT albino, as long as they have normal dark body pigment that can assured by the jet black color of the nose leather, eye rims, nails, paw pads and leaps. To stand against the myth again, the correctly bred white German Shepherd Dogs are anatomically, behaviorally and medically not different than German Shepherd Dogs of any other colors and patterns. It was due to the lack of adequate knowledge on genetics that the White GSD had been considered disqualification, following the myth that they were albino. Sometimes in the past the gene for albinism had been the only known white gene, which consequently made dog lovers show wrong attitude towards the white GSD.



Year of extensive researches on the color & pattern genetics of the White German Shepherd Dog have revealed that these are pure breed German Shepherds and are mentally and anatomically fit as working dogs. Studies have shown that there can several variations of White GSD. For the German Shepherd puppies to be white it is essential that both the dam and sire have to carry white recessive gene, although it is not necessary that the parents have to be white. To put this in simpler way, the non-white German shepherd dam and sire can be capable to produce white German Shepherd puppies, if they are the carriers of white recessive gene. Since this particular gene is recessive it can skip off generations – not showing up for several generations.



The White Recessive gene – irrespective of breed is a gene that is entirely different from the genes that are responsible for albino and white spots in non-white dogs. It is worthy enough to mention that in very rare occasions white spotting can be found even in the German Shepherd Dogs, due to Irish White Spotting Gene resulting puppies with white muzzle, which is considered as the deviation from the standard and hence considered as faults.



White German Shepherds are not faults anyway. The presence of a pair of white recessive genes results in masking the dog's genetic color and marking pattern. Henceforth the white color covers the dog's base coat colors, which are tan, red, cream, silver etc. In the process the white also covers up dog’s marking color such as agouti, two-tone, or solid.



Reasons for decreasing popularity of White German Shepherds



Its is due to the myth that most people are not intended to buy white German Shepherd puppies. As a matter of fact White German Shepherd puppies can descend from two pure breed GSDs carrying white recessive gene. Unfortunately the White Recessive gene has been kept untouched due to the lack of knowledge about white gene. It is due to ignorance that the white German Shepherd puppies used to be considered as fault. Also partly owing to the political wrinkles the white recessive gene had been overlooked and neglected. White coat color in German Shepherd Dog breed was disqualified in the breed standard of German Shepherd Dog Club of Germany in the year 1933, when the club went under the control of Nazi party of Germany that took over almost the entire German society in February 1933 when Hitler declared a state of emergency. The German breed standard remained unchanged as most of the reputable German GSD breeders repopulated the breed in the years following the end of WWII.
?
2015-02-01 17:01:42 UTC
My boy is solid black but has a solid white grandparent and sable gold standard parents. I don't think you can always tell what you're going to get. The other pups in Erik's litter were standard colour
?
2017-02-23 02:08:06 UTC
long hair all the way! i just posted a question concerning my hair also. i thought concerning getting it trimmed but everyone will be telling me no
tak
2009-03-22 07:36:37 UTC
funny you asked this because I have thought about it too. I have a beautiful black female who was pick of the litter by the breeder.



I used to breed hamsters and the same theory goes. You would get some black, some white, and they may have some markings in the typical shepherd fashion. ie. back of bottom of legs, between toes, etc.



However, I do agree with the other post that this experiment should not be taken on. Imagine if you ended up with 8 or 10 pups and couldn't find homes for them....
El Loco Pollo
2009-03-22 07:36:48 UTC
This all depends on genetics, specifically the dominance of each gene. If black is the dominate gene then a majority of the pups may be black, and vice versa. The only way you would get dogs that are both colors is if the genes are codominant, meaning they are both dominant. Knowing that both dogs parents were both the same color makes this even more difficult to answer because it does not give information to dictate what is the dominant gene.
?
2017-01-22 09:16:06 UTC
It depends on the girl's point of view. To be honest, I like longer tresses on guys, they certainly know exactly how to express their own style as well as it makes me happy
Preponderant
2009-03-22 07:40:19 UTC
White is a recessive gene and will only produce white with white dogs. Unless the blacks have white in them, you will get all black pups.



Yes, white is not a AKC qualifying color but they are a UKC qualifying color and are being re-classified as the American White Shepherd. Whoever says they should not be bred is ignorant and lacks nowledge on dog breeds.
fantasticchewy
2009-03-22 07:34:16 UTC
You won't be able to tell what color the puppies will be they could be white they could be black they could be black and white. You never know.


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