Question:
White vs. regular GSD?
Geramy
2009-10-29 19:19:34 UTC
Okay, I want to know the differences between the two, I know that many consider the White GSD to be a mut ( I don't, but thats not the point) what are the differences? do White GSDs have the same health problems?
Eleven answers:
2009-10-30 06:52:16 UTC
[Dazzling.. . ]:

• You say "a white German shepherd is a disqualification". Actually a German shepherd (of any colour) is a PERSON. The canine breed is the German Shepherd Dog.

• The UKC has NOTHING to do with The KC of the United Kingdom (aka Great Britain for most purposes).

The UKC's authority is recognised by NO-ONE except those Yanks who register with it. It has some good ideas, but don't bother trying to import/export breeding or showing stock that has only UKC registration.

• The UKC lets breeders of white GSDs pick and choose whether to register their pups as GSDs or as White GSDs - illogical.

• There is NO "gene that controls the white color". (1) There is no white pigment - the hairs of self-whites are translucent. (2) It takes 4 alleles to produce self-whites. In all breeds one pair is e^ e^ , a combination that switches off the eumelanin (black pigment). In Samoyeds the other pair is a^ a^ , but the pairing that switches the phaeomelanin (tan pigment) off in GSDs has not yet been DNA-identified.



[petstore-etc]:

That is NOT the GSD Standard. That is the vague rebel document invented by the GSDCAmerica & the AKC.

THIS http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/166A1991_en.doc is the only valid Standard of the GSD. It was approved at the 1991 WUSV Conference (World Union of GSD Clubs, with about 77 member nations) and used by almost every country except Britain, Canada, New Zealand, the USofA (but USCA uses it).



[Jenny]:

• Your "Whites can happen in any litter, though most breeders won't admit it." is simply wrong. I know only one GSD breeder in my country who had whites "happen" - and all the warning signs were in the 2 imports he mated together: both parents were line-bred on the notorious-carrier Avon Prince of Alumvale, both parents were very pale and had lost most of their black. Very few carriers for white don't display telltale signs of their heritage. But intelligent breeders will have noticed the carrier-lines when doing a full-pedigree-check.

• Like most Yanks (plus Linda Shaw), you don't know what "roached" means. There are some ugly extreme-banana-backs still around, but their croups are FAR too steep for them to be desirable GSDs.

• Not at all for your "at least part of the motivation for banning the white dogs was fear that the white was related to the fade gene that causes blue and liver," (1) Blue & liver are NOT "fade", don't affect the tan; they degrade the black. (2) Their only relationship to white is that their alleles are recessives - but in quite different series. (3) Sheep farmers know that sheep don't regard white dogs as predators, which means that a white dog has to work MUCH harder than a properly-marked herding dog; so everything takes longer, and the dog needs more food, neither of which suits a farmer. White dogs are guardians, camouflaged to be better able to sneak up on predators. (4) Some early officials thought that whites & albinos might be connected - but not so, except for lack of hair pigments.

• Health: One of the Yank clubs did a survey among its REPUTABLE breeders. It's on-line. I'm told that they found that 1 in 4 (25%) of their dogs has at least one problem other than colour. I can't directly compare the survey my GSD Advisory Council did, because methods & ages were different, but only about 5-8% had a problem other than colour.

• And not "can do everything" - they are ineligible for Breed Survey, they are too risky for military patrols (except in snow).



[Geramy:

In short:

Same foundation gene pool, just selected for the wrong things. And far too many are produced by con-artists cashing in on the colour without ANY attempt to maintain type (attitude, behaviour, conformation, size, temperament). Beware "cute" and "loyal" in ads



To discuss GSDs, join some of the 400+ YahooGroups dedicated to various aspects of living with GSDs. Each group's Home page tells you which aspects they like to discuss, and how active they are. Most allow you to include photos so that you can show what your pup looks like.

Les P, owner of GSD_Friendly: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/GSD_Friendly

"In GSDs" as of 1967
?
2009-10-29 19:50:21 UTC
Whites can happen in any litter, though most breeders won't admit it.



The primarily-white bloodlines have kept themselves separate since the AKC followed the SV and made the color a disqualification, although many very good and well-respected dogs in the beginning of the breed were white.



I seem to recall that at least part of the motivation for banning the white dogs was fear that the white was related to the fade gene that causes blue and liver, which they wanted to eliminate. It is not, and they have not eliminated blues and livers, though they are banned,as well.



Because whites cannot compete in the AKC showring, you will find white bloodlines that don't show the extreme angulation that makes US show GSDs look like they are dragging their bellies. They also rarely show the ugly roached back that makes the European dogs look like Halloween cats.



There is no reasonable way to compare health statistics; most white GSDs in the US are registered with the AKC as GSDs, since that is what they are. There have been various attempts at making them their own breed (as West Highland White Terriers are just all the white Cairn Terriers separated out), but none have really worked. White Shepherds, American White Shepherds, Swiss White Shepherds, North American Shepherds (some miniature Australian Shepherd people tried to use that one, too), have all made attempts at giving the white dogs their own identity, but it doesn't work. People love them because they are German Shepherd Dogs, with all the history and all the potential that every GSD has.



You can do anything with a white GSD that you can with any other GSD except conformation showing with the AKC or FCI. I don't think too many white fanciers have tried Schutzhund with their dogs, but I don't know if that's a real incapacity in the dogs or if it is a human problem: owners of whites might not be interested, and Schutzhund clubs, even in the US, tend to follow the SV rules... and those don't allow whites.



OTOH, in the US, Schutzhund is open to any breed; I watched a Miniature Bull Terrier earn a SchI, much to his owner's delight. Little dog was good, but would not advance any farther: the rules do not allow accommodation to a dog's size, and the little guy just could not do the obstacle course with the SchII or SchIII dumbells: they were too heavy.



Many white GSD breeders, in accepting their rebellion against the color rule, have also relaxed their attitude toward coat, and allow plush and longcoats. While these dogs are undeniably attractive, the coats are not as weatherproof as the standard coat, and thus unacceptable to anyone who wants to maintain the GSD as it was originally conceived by Von Stephanitz (who had no problem with whites).



So, you get to pick. Have fun.
2009-10-30 02:48:54 UTC
The fact that they have always been considered a fault, reduced their numbers greatly early on during the GSD's history. I've trained around 200 of them, and haven't stumbled upon one with a stable temperament as of yet. They tend to be nervous, fearful, hyper, skittish, etc. I can attribute this to nothing except lack of gene pool. As far as health...there's not really a difference. I've heard people refer to coat and skin problems with them, but have never seen it.



Had they been excepted all along, I doubt their would be any difference...but, there is. I actually think they look pretty cool....but if there's one worth owning, I haven't found him.
~Compétences~
2009-10-29 19:33:25 UTC
Well while some "kennel clubs" have recognized it as a different breed from the German Shepherd, AKC hasn't. In fact, a white German shepherd is a disqualification. The United Kennel Club has recongized it as a different breed. The only difference is some consider it a fault, other kennel clubs don't. They are different because responsible breeders of the AKC dog shows/events do not breed the dogs with the white coat, while the other breeders of different kennel clubs do. They are the same breed- just one is called the "American White shepherd". They are PUREBRED german shepherds as there have been no other breed or breeds added in order to make them white. The gene that controls the white color is a natural component in the total color genetic makeup of the German Shepherd Dog breed.



The only registry that considers them a separate breed that isn't a crappy kennel club that cares only for money is the UKC. It's the 2nd oldest registry in the united states and its basically the united kingdom's kennel club. All the rest like APRI is crappy- back yard breeders use them and there are no real shows/events. UKC has their own dog shows/events they are just not as publicized as AKC is.



As to the health issues,both of them suffer the same genetic problems like hip dysplasia.So the parents, need to be OFA and all that health stuff certified.
2009-10-29 19:25:49 UTC
White GSDs are a fault, because back when GSDs herded, the farmer wanted a dark dog so that they could distinguish between the dog and the sheep.
2009-10-29 20:30:48 UTC
White german shepherds are... WHITE german shepherds.



WHY they are being categorized into a different breed by many is beyond me. Just because they are a breed fault, does not mean they should become their own breed. Just stop breeding for them. End of discussion.





A white german shepherds is a dog that was bred for nothing more then coat coloration. End of discussion. When you breed for only physical attributes, then you WILL have dogs that are unstable and have severe temperament problems
2009-10-30 02:37:08 UTC
no white shepherds don't have health problems they are just no kennel club breed standards....i know someone that raises the white ones they are more popular than the regular colors...
notebook
2009-10-29 19:32:51 UTC
As a dog groomer, I found the white GS to be more high strung, and non compliant. They both get bad hips.
Blunt Force Trauma
2009-10-30 06:16:37 UTC
WRONG...."many" do NOT!!! Only the ignorant do.

White is simply a major /DISQUALIFYING *FAULT*!!!

NO "differences"...just WRONG/BAD/FAULTY/UNACCEPTABLE!

Same as if it was SPOTTED,roan,tri.............UNACCEPTABLE.
puppies
2009-10-29 19:23:25 UTC
they are the same but the white has longer hair
2009-10-29 19:38:08 UTC
White German Shepherd are NOT actually a mutt, but there colouring in the AKC is considered fault. Purebred white german shepherd DO exsist but AKC consider them a fault. Silver Labradors are a MUTT=Weimarner x Chocolate Labrador.



German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard

Herding Group

General Appearance

The first impression of a good German Shepherd Dog is that of a strong, agile, well muscled animal, alert and full of life. It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. The dog is longer than tall, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles. It looks substantial and not spindly, giving the impression, both at rest and in motion, of muscular fitness and nimbleness without any look of clumsiness or soft living. The ideal dog is stamped with a look of quality and nobility--difficult to define, but unmistakable when present. Secondary sex characteristics are strongly marked, and every animal gives a definite impression of masculinity or femininity, according to its sex.



Temperament

The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.



Size, Proportion, Substance

The desired height for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.



The German Shepherd Dog is longer than tall, with the most desirable proportion as 10 to 8½. The length is measured from the point of the prosternum or breastbone to the rear edge of the pelvis, the ischial tuberosity. The desirable long proportion is not derived from a long back, but from overall length with relation to height, which is achieved by length of forequarter and length of withers and hindquarter, viewed from the side.



Head

The head is noble, cleanly chiseled, strong without coarseness, but above all not fine, and in proportion to the body. The head of the male is distinctly masculine, and that of the ***** distinctly feminine.



The expression keen, intelligent and composed. Eyes of medium size, almond shaped, set a little obliquely and not protruding. The color is as dark as possible. Ears are moderately pointed, in proportion to the skull, open toward the front, and carried erect when at attention, the ideal carriage being one in which the center lines of the ears, viewed from the front, are parallel to each other and perpendicular to the ground. A dog with cropped or hanging ears must be disqualified.



Seen from the front the forehead is only moderately arched, and the skull slopes into the long, wedge-shaped muzzle without abrupt stop. The muzzle is long and strong, and its topline is parallel to the topline of the skull. Nose black. A dog with a nose that is not predominantly black must be disqualified. The lips are firmly fitted. Jaws are strongly developed. Teeth --42 in number--20 upper and 22 lower--are strongly developed and meet in a scissors bite in which part of the inner surface of the upper incisors meet and engage part of the outer surface of the lower incisors. An overshot jaw or a level bite is undesirable. An undershot jaw is a disqualifying fault. Complete dentition is to be preferred. Any missing teeth other than first premolars is a serious fault.



Neck, Topline, Body

The neck is strong and muscular, clean-cut and relatively long, proportionate in size to the head and without loose folds of skin. When the dog is at attention or excited, the head is raised and the neck carried high; otherwise typical carriage of the head is forward rather than up and but little higher than the top of the shoulders, particularly in motion.



Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.



The whole structure of the body gives an impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness.



Chest--Commencing at the prosternum, it is well filled and carried well down between the legs. It is deep and capacious, never shallow, with ample room for lungs and heart, carried well forward, with the prosternum showing ahead of the shoulder in profile. Ribs well sprung and long, neither barrel-shaped nor too flat, and carried down to a sternum which reaches to the elbows. Correct ribbing allows the elbows to move back freely when the dog is at a trot. Too round causes interference and throws the elbows out; too flat or short causes pinched elbows. Ribbing is carried well back so that the loin is relatively short. Abdomen firmly held and not paunchy. The bottom line is only moderately tucked up in the loin.



Loin Viewed from the top, broad and strong. Undue length between the last rib and the thigh, when viewed from the side, is undesirable. Croup long and gradually sloping.



Tail bushy, with the last vertebra extended at least to the hock joint. It is set smoothly into the croup and low rather than high. At rest, the tail hangs in a slight curve like a saber. A slight hook- sometimes carried to one side-is faulty only to the extent that it mars general appearance. When the dog is excited or in motion, the curve is accentuated and the tail raised, but it should never be curled forward beyond a vertical line. Tails too short, or with clumpy ends due to ankylosis, are serious faults. A dog with a docked tail must be disqualified.



Forequarters

The shoulder blades are long and obliquely angled, laid on flat and not placed forward. The upper arm joins the shoulder blade at about a right angle. Both the upper arm and the shoulder blade are well muscled. The forelegs, viewed from all sides, are straight and the bone oval rather than round. The pasterns are strong and springy and angulated at approximately a 25-degree angle from the vertical. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed, but are normally left on. The feet are short, compact with toes well arched, pads thick and firm, nails short and dark.



Hindquarters

The whole assembly of the thigh, viewed from the side, is broad, with both upper and lower thigh well muscled, forming as nearly as possible a right angle. The upper thigh bone parallels the shoulder blade while the lower thigh bone parallels the upper arm. The metatarsus (the unit between the hock joint and the foot) is short, strong and tightly articulated. The dewclaws, if any, should be removed from the hind legs. Feet as in front.



Coat

The ideal dog has a double coat of medium length. The outer coat should be as dense as possible, hair straight, harsh and lying close to the body. A slightly wavy outer coat, often of wiry texture, is permissible. The head, including the inner ear and foreface, and the legs and paws are covered with short hair, and the neck with longer and thicker hair. The rear of the forelegs and hind legs has somewhat longer hair extending to the pastern and hock, respectively. Faults in coat include soft, silky, too long outer coat, woolly, curly, and open coat.



Color

The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.



Gait

A German Shepherd Dog is a trotting dog, and its structure has been developed to meet the requirements of its work. General Impression-- The gait is outreaching, elastic, seemingly without effort, smooth and rhythmic, covering the maximum amount of ground with the minimum number of steps. At a walk it covers a great deal of ground, with long stride of both hind legs and forelegs. At a trot the dog covers still more ground with even longer stride, and moves powerfully but easily, with coordination and balance so that the gait appears to be the steady motion of a well-lubricated machine. The feet travel close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push. In order to achieve ideal movement of this kind, there must be good muscular development and ligamentation. The hindquarters deliver, through the back, a powerful forward thrust which slightly lifts the whole animal and drives the body forward. Reaching far under, and passing the imprint left by the front foot, the hind foot takes hold of the ground; then hock, stifle and upper thigh come into play and sweep back, the stroke of the hind leg finishing with the foot still close to the ground in a smooth follow-through. The overreach of the hindquarter usually necessitates one hind foot passing outside and the other hind foot passing inside the track of the forefeet, and such action is not faulty unless the locomotion is crabwise with the dog’s body sideways out of the normal straight line.



Transmission The typical smooth, flowin


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